The importance of cultural diversity in the arts, with Karina H Maynard

To access the available transcript please use the following link: https://bit.ly/3gBuZQU

Karina is a cultural curator, educator, producer and consultant who works to improve representation in the arts and culture. 

Over the past 20 years, she’s worked across the arts, culture, education, and media to shape the experience & engagement of diverse audiences and stakeholders.

 We discuss with Karina the importance of decolonising the curriculum and representation in the arts – or the lack thereof. We also talk about her passion for music and the different influences that have shaped her multihyphenate career.

Karina’s website: https://karinahmaynard.com/ 

Discover more about UAL Awarding Body qualifications.

Transcript

Matt Moseley:

Hello, and welcome to the Teach, Inspire, Create podcast. I'm your host, Matt Moseley, chief examiner for art and design at the UAL awarding body. In this series, I'll be talking to artists and creative industry leaders under the lenses of three main themes: teaching, inspiring, and creating. Today, my guest is Karina H. Maynard. Karina is a cultural curator, educator, producer, and consultant who works to improve representation in the arts and culture. Over the past 20 years, she's worked across the arts culture, education and media to shape the experience and engagement of diverse audiences and stakeholders. In today's conversation, I'm looking forward to talking to Karina about her multifaceted career from DJing to being a board member at the performing arts school Urdang Academy and how she uses her strengths to challenge her mindset. I'm also interested to talk to her about representation in the arts, or the lack of, and the importance of decolonising the curriculum. There is a transcript available for this episode. Please click the link in the episode description so you can read as you listen.

Matt Moseley:

Hello, Karina. Thank you ever so much for joining us today on the Teach, Inspire, Create podcast. It's wonderful to have you. We're incredibly grateful for your a time because you're a very busy person. So welcome.

Karina Maynard:

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. It really is. Thank you for having me.

Matt Moseley:

Brilliant. Well, you're very welcome. Thank you. So in terms of educational experiences that you've had in your life, have you had an inspirational teacher or moment that you could draw on that's influenced your career?

Karina Maynard:

Oh, wow. Yeah, quite a few come to mind. The first thing that came to mind is the fact that I'm a believer that we are constantly learning and evolving and I'm always looking for the lesson in every situation. So that's constantly bringing me new awarenesses. But in terms of people who've helped me along my way and my journey, I've had so many significant moments. One of the moments that come to mind was my first editor, Tony Corbin, when I started out as a journalist over 20 years ago, he was incredible. Looking back now, I can see how brilliant a teacher he was because he gave me a bit of independence. He was a really stern editor. He helped me understand how teams work, collaboration.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah.

Karina Maynard:

And that's so important on a news desk. And how important your role is within that team.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah.

Karina Maynard:

So yeah, I think he's one of the people that when I look back, has been quite significant.

Matt Moseley:

Great. And you mentioned as well about how life and all your experiences and the people that you meet constantly help you to learn and evolve. Is that something that you actively cultivate in yourself? Is that a mindset, an inquisitive mindset that you adopt?

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely. I can't tell you when I became so consciously aware of it, obviously it's something that you're told, in life there's lessons, but I think definitely it's part of a mindset practice for me. Obviously through my work, I do a lot of work on reflection and identity, so it really does start with me. I think I'm a very reflective person. And I'm in a situation where I'm constantly evolving at the moment, because I do have a multi-hyphenate career and the world is constantly changing, so I'm learning and adapting and evolving all the time. And big part of that for me is reflection, looking back at my journey, how things have been done. Making decisions on what kind of environments are right for me, what kind of roles are right for me. And then putting that into practice.

Matt Moseley:

Right. So obviously you've had, as you say, you've had this multi-hyphenate career, a huge portfolio of things that you do that all centre around creativity in the creative arts. Has that always been in your life since childhood? Or is that something that you've come to later?

Karina Maynard:

Yeah, creativity for sure. I guess when I was younger, it was words, music, and nature.

Matt Moseley:

Right.

Karina Maynard:

So words in terms of me being an avid reader from a very young age, and then that translated into me writing, particularly like at school English literature, comprehension, things like that.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah.

Karina Maynard:

I've always enjoyed understanding what things mean. Music. Some people know me for music because I've DJ'd over the years.

Matt Moseley:

Of course. Absolutely.

Karina Maynard:

Music lessons. I played piano, flute, percussion. And then obviously, when I first started my journalism career, there was definitely a focus on music. And music and dance is still a huge part of what I do now.

Matt Moseley:

Because I guess that really links into something that I know about you from our conversations earlier is about this idea of storytelling and these stories. And obviously those early passions about reading and music. Does your passion for storytelling still remain? Is that still very powerful with you?

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely. In everything that I do. Even in education, I think it's a bit more obvious in terms of the curatorial work I do, the cultural programs I develop, how I'm featuring people and telling stories from different perspectives. And obviously when I'm producing, that leans more towards my journalism background in terms of bringing those narratives to life. But my approach in the educational sector is definitely about centering people in their stories. So with young people, whether it's me developing programs for young people and young creatives where they tap into their identity and their environments where they're having conversations, speaking about aspects of themselves that they might not of considered before, doing so in group settings so they're hearing other people's experiences firsthand, and then bringing that to life or exploring that through performing arts or some other creative or media practice. And similarly, even when I'm doing training for staff or even managing staff and things like that, my sort of diversity inclusion training, really centres on decolonisation, reflective practice, which is all about identity.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. So you've got some clear strategies that you employ then to try and move people into the centre of their story to take ownership of that.

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely.

Matt Moseley:

What are those strategies? What do you do to open someone up to that?

Karina Maynard:

Yeah. Well, quite often, if I'm brought into an organisation, it's about meeting with leadership teams or educators and seeing where they're at, at that very moment of time. And again, that sort of journalism background and the curator in me, we start with conversations around history, the last 400 years of history. What's happened globally? Quite often when we hear narratives around race and equality and diversity, it's focused on the others, the Black people or the global majority people are othered, and that's their story. That's Black history.

Matt Moseley:

Right. It's seen as a separate entity in it's own right.

Karina Maynard:

It's a separate entity. And particularly if we've grown up in a Western setting, it's important that everybody understands the global positioning within that narrative.

Matt Moseley:

So is it about helping people to understand that all those stories are interwoven?

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely. And understanding our place in the world, because again, I position it in that way so that people understand that our cultural experience, how we've been educated, the television, the media, the entertainment we consume, our family stories, our relationships, are all influenced and shaped by this history. So it's helping us to understand ourselves. And quite often when people think this is a conversation that's going to come up, there's a lot of fear and resistance because they think it's going to be a blame thing, but it's really an acceptance thing. History has happened, we can't change history. But we can consider our mindset and our culture and what we are creating from an informed perspective, in terms of having that conscious awareness of where our belief systems have come from that influence our actions. Because if I'm brought into an organisation, I think they quite often expect me to go straight to policies and the dos and don'ts list.

Karina Maynard:

This is what you must say. This is what you mustn't say. This is what your marketing must look like. And really my approach is more about looking at the mindsets of leaders and creators and educators so that they can develop their reflective practice and look at their own belief systems. And that informs what decisions they make if they're in the marketing department or if they're a teacher of ballet or whatever they're doing. They will have, like you said at the beginning, ownership of their own processes. I'm not saying that there's not then policies and laws and advice there, but it really starts with being able to reflect and being honest in a level of acceptance.

Matt Moseley:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it really sounds that through helping people to accept and take ownership of that, there's that empowerment, which comes to that, which can then facilitate change. Is that correct?

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely. It's all about empowerment. It's about uplifting people and you can't do that if you are feeling resistant or defensive, especially about something that isn't necessarily your doing. The only way that you can be resistant is if you hold on consciously or unconsciously to certain values that have been challenged. So for sure, it's all about empowerment. And to be honest, whether it's CPD training or the programs I develop for students, by the time we've spoken a bit about history in different terms, then people start to tell their own stories. That's where the empowerment really comes through. Especially people who, like I was saying, quite often Black and global majority people are used to being othered. But for example, sometimes when I'm doing workshops with young white male students, they've never been asked about their identity.

Matt Moseley:

That's really interesting. Why do you think that is? Why do you think they never get asked about it?

Karina Maynard:

I guess from an English perspective we're here in England, I was born in England, it's again, because of history, I think a lot of people are told that your identity is that you are English and what that means in terms of empire and all these sorts of things. And if we're in a time where certain values are been challenged, such as empire and colonialism and things like that, then people are left, "Well, then what am I?" And it's like, "Well, you are actually a whole person. Just like you look at others like, 'Oh, they're from this place and they're different,' you're actually different too."

Matt Moseley:

Right. Yes, of course.

Karina Maynard:

So it's about also exploring who we are as individuals and then also being able to relate to others for being individuals and different, and connecting on a more human level.

Matt Moseley:

I really want to go into more of that, but I'd love to come back to a bit more about you, if I may?

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely.

Matt Moseley:

So you've had this incredibly wide ranging career and you touched on music and journalism and those as maybe some of the starting points for you now, lots of our listeners, our students would really want to get into that kind of field. And we'd love to know a little bit more about how you found yourself working in those spaces. Would you mind telling them a bit about that?

Karina Maynard:

Yeah. With music, that was just pure love and passion. And I think the common thread in terms of everything I do, and that again, that's very clear to me now more so than before, is that I am very purpose driven. So I've always managed to hold onto things that have real meaning to me. And I have a curiosity. So I think for music, like I said, from a very young age, three, four, I was obsessed with music. So I was always looking for those sorts of opportunities. And alongside that, as I said, I was writing, really passionate about writing in my teens. And so music journalism just felt natural to me. But I think a good thing about youth and being a young person in London is that there's always so much happening. And I think if you are really purpose driven and passion driven, there are opportunities everywhere. There are people everywhere. And it's really about showing up as your real self.

Matt Moseley:

Right, so there's an authenticity thing there.

Karina Maynard:

An authenticity there. Because I think that's where you meet and connect with people that have got similar passions or interests, et cetera.

Matt Moseley:

It sounds as though, by harnessing your passion, that gave you the bravery to bang on these doors a bit.

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because people said, "How did you know this person or that person in the music industry?" But if you are playing instruments, if you are going to music events, if you're doing that, you're going to meet people. And they might not be famous people when you meet them. But that's not the point of the connection. The connection is really connecting with people that, like you said, there's that authentic link. So I actually got my first journalism job by meeting another journalist at an award show. I think my friend and I, we went to cover it like students or something like that. And I was just talking, talking to people, we met some people and they invited us to another awards thing, went there and met her editor. And then I think I just started bombarding him with reviews. And that's the other thing, people always wait until you have a job or something to start doing the thing. If you're passionate about it, I was already writing reviews before I had a publication to write for. So when I met him, I could bombard him with my portfolio.

Matt Moseley:

Here's my portfolio. And I think it's really important, not letting those apathetic feelings overwhelm you, isn't it? And about centering yourself and your passions and interest in what you work, it gives you the energy to drive forward all the time.

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely. Because you were speaking about apathy and there are many emotions and thoughts that we go through that impact how we show up and what we do. So I'm by no means saying that I've not ever struggled. We have to fight and sometimes we're really brave in one area and we've got to develop our confidence in the other area, et cetera. So I think it's about balance and having a level of self-compassion and understanding.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. Because I guess if you can really refine your own voice and what you want to say and do with your creativity, then you are authentically behind it, aren't you?

Karina Maynard:

You are. And heres a trick.

Matt Moseley:

That's very powerful.

Karina Maynard:

Here's a trick though. You are authentically behind it. But the toughest thing about that is, you will be the only person who's a hundred percent behind it because nobody else...

Matt Moseley:

You got to be resilient then, haven't you?

Karina Maynard:

You've got to be resilient. And that's the most challenging part for everybody.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. Because I guess if you are authentically immersed in something that you're doing, there's an intense vulnerability that comes with that. If you've got a creative output and you are invested in that a hundred percent, if that's not received immediately in a positive way or in a successful way, or what you perceive as what success should feel like, that can be really challenging, I suppose.

Karina Maynard:

That can be challenging. But I think that can be rewarding in the long term when you look back because often we're not seeing ourselves grow. We're in it, but we're not looking objectively at our lives. Exactly. But I guess I was thinking about just being endorsed by people. If you are looking for that sort of validation, that's a great idea. The more original you are and the more creative you are, the only place where that idea can exist is within you until it's realised. So quite often people don't fully realise things because they're not getting that sort of validation. We hear about artists and their struggles and I think that is the toughest part of it. You can feel quite isolated at times.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. It can be a very lonely space. We really encourage students to interview and to talk to people directly. This idea of using that as a primary research form. And that's obviously something that you mentioned about, has been a thread through everything that you do. How does talking to people inform your practice in different ways? And do you have any strategies that you regularly employ when you're structuring those interviews?

Karina Maynard:

Yeah. Like you said, it's so important, it's so valuable to understand people, to understand yourself, to understand the world, you need to be able to interview. And I think it's quite often directed by who you are, and again, that authenticity. What are you curious about? What do you want to know about people in the world and creativity and practice? That's really how I think you can be the most effective interviewer. Quite often people interview with a clear idea of what they want to hear, particularly when I started out in music and entertainment, journalism and things like that. It's very much that sphere often. I think you should want to know the answer to a question, but be willing to hear the answer to the question and let that guide your question. So it's about being present and engaged authentically. I did radio for seven years, so I guess in terms of technique, that comes with practice.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. You mentioned about ideas. And obviously ideas are like gold. Do you have any particular strategies or techniques that help you to come up with new ideas? And then when you've got ideas, to shape them and refine them?

Karina Maynard:

I think sometimes pressure helps you.

Matt Moseley:

Oh God yeah. A little bit of pressure goes a long way.

Karina Maynard:

Again, I'm talking quite a bit about journalism considering that's not really what I do much of nowadays, but that really teaches you, that when you got a deadline, you got to just get started. Sometimes it's about just doing it. It doesn't have to be a masterpiece before it's created. Sometimes it's just like jotting a few words down and then applying yourself and taking things from there. I think overall in terms of ideas, I'm quite lucky that I've been able to meet people, and in the most serendipitous kind of ways. This isn't through CV's or job interviews. I've met people and clicked. One of those people is professor Martin Evans.

Matt Moseley:

Right.

Karina Maynard:

Who I partner with in terms of curatorial work. When I first started speaking with Martin and we clicked, it was because he asked questions that I think are really interesting. The kind of questions that I probably ask, but from a different perspective. And when we collaborate, we bring different skills to the table. So you have that freedom to be creative and your mind runs wild, because there's not pressure to do all the things that you might not be best positioned to do. But you trust and respect someone who is in that position. I think respect is incredibly important in terms of ideas and creativity and growing things. I don't know how it looks from the outside, but I don't really feel at the moment that I'm in many situations where I feel like, "Oh, I want to compete and do better than the other person." Not saying that doesn't happen around me, but that's not my motivator.

Karina Maynard:

And I think we spoke about mindset. I'm in a place where if ever feel that way, then I know that I might be off balance and not quite on my path because I think there's space for everybody to be themselves.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. And so with that collaborative relationship that obviously you said you've been working in for a long time now, several years, do you ever have conflicting ideas about things or challenging ideas about things? And if you do, how do you find a compromise?

Karina Maynard:

Oh, there's a lot of respect there. And I think it's important that the more that you understand yourself, your identity, we are talking about that in terms of decolonisation, but that's also about in terms of as a creative, who you are and what your strengths are, the more you can see other people and acknowledge their strength. Don't be a hater.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah, exactly. That's brilliant. Because collaboration is so crucial, I think, in creativity. And definitely students sometimes find that difficult element, particularly at the beginning when they feel incredibly wedded to a creative idea and learning to maybe release some of that, it is hard. So we fast forward a little to now, obviously the Urdang, the center that you're working at the moment, I'd love to hear a little bit about what you're up to there. Or maybe how that fits in with some of your other projects that you've been working on?

Karina Maynard:

Yeah. So I'm a board member and executive director at the Urdang Academy. So that's a conservatoire for dance and performing arts. It's an incredible place. Historically, it's one of the most diverse or it's the most diverse performing arts conservatoire in the UK. Yeah. It was founded by a woman who came from South Africa apartheid. They fled apartheid in South Africa, came here. So a core value at that time was to ensure that people of all backgrounds, if you were good, you could study there. So I interviewed Namron not too long ago, who was connected with the Urdang. He was the first Black dancer to be in a British dance company who was one of the founding members of the place. A lot of interesting legacies through there. And at the moment still, this is where I get a bit braggadocious.

Karina Maynard:

We are still, most of the West End leads, a lot of them come through the Urdang. And it's had an incredible history. So it was great for me to start working there, to be on the board, a Black woman as well. A lot of my young people, especially young people from the global majority, feel incredibly proud as well to see themselves represented. So I think that's really important to me. I've really been given the freedom to bring my creativity to my practice there. So I'm executive director as well, so I have responsibility for in particular, representation, experience and engagement, that covers everything from application processes to how courses are delivered, to looking at creative material.

Matt Moseley:

So the performance program as well, you're involved in helping steer that, are you?

Karina Maynard:

Yes, to a certain degree. More, I guess, consulting almost, because we have incredible professionals from musical theatre and dance and drama and music industry there, but it's helping us to constantly decolonise. Everything, everywhere needs to be.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah.

Karina Maynard:

I know it's such a buzzword, but it's thinking, "Well, hang on, where are the stereotypes here? What's the messaging here." And one of my favorite things I do there is I do workshops with every single Urdang student who comes through a workshop with me with about race, culture identity. Then we use forum theater for them to explore concepts in their stories and develop their own narratives about it. And I think it's quite obvious, particularly in the last year and a half, since this last Black Lives Matter movement cycle happened, that our young people want to do better. And then that in itself challenges the institution to meet their needs.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. And I guess institutions have changed what their needs look like. So I think we'll move on to our inspire section now.

Matt Moseley:

I really want to take this off opportunity to tap into your expertise around this specialism to do with decolonising cultural narratives. And I think it might be really useful for some of our listeners, particularly maybe some of our student listeners, to just understand a definition of what that means

Karina Maynard:

Decolonisation is really about looking at colonial history and what were the narratives that were created to enable that process to happen?

Matt Moseley:

Right. Yeah. So if we understand what those contributing influences are that in those people's heads at the time justified these behaviours and these actions, then we can learn from it and ever avoid returning to that.

Karina Maynard:

Learn from it and then understand, then we'll be able to cast a critical eye over every aspect of society.

Matt Moseley:

Great.

Karina Maynard:

We've seen strides in society and civilisation in terms of moving past colonisation and slavery. But even up to apartheid, that wasn't that long ago. And obviously there are always injustices that are taking place. So it's about looking at the value systems and the messaging. And I guess that collective societal... How the collective enables things to happen. So when we understand where our thoughts come from, our values come from, because we understand the history, then we can be a bit more conscious thinking, "Okay, what do we want to create? What do we want to see?" And perhaps develop our belief systems and actions in a way that's congruent with what we want to create. So decolonisation is about the history, it's about the change, but it's also, like I said, about ourselves in many ways.

Matt Moseley:

That's so interesting. What I find really interesting as well about what you're saying is this idea of creating a unified mindset within the community, whether that's the global community or your local community, and about how that can be a real force for good, or in terms of justifying within people, their behavioural constructs and the way that they move through the world.

Karina Maynard:

Yeah. And it's key for self development as well. That's why it's part of the CPD training that I do because at the end of the day, it's okay, we make mistakes all the time. I'm not saying grave historical injustices were right or should have been done, that's not what I'm saying. But on a very personal level in terms of our contributions, we have to be very honest with ourselves. That's how we improve and develop and learn and grow. We are constantly learning from our experiences. So one of the key things I teach is that it's okay for people to be different. The more you allow people to be their true selves, the more you can connect on a human level.

Matt Moseley:

So when you are working with an organisation or a community or individual, and you're working on changing the narrative that they're on, what sorts of strategies do you employ to do that? And particularly if you're having a challenging conversation, how do you engage any stakeholders that you might need to employ in the work that you're doing?

Karina Maynard:

I think because my work is purpose driven, but it enables me to be in a lot of different spaces, sometimes I'm in very business environments, and sometimes...

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. You consult a lot, don't you, with organisations?

Karina Maynard:

I consult a lot with organisations and also a big part of my work is partnerships. Sometimes I'm in an educational space, art space, so I'm constantly in different environments and that's helped me sharpen, I guess my skills as almost like an editor. Talking about me being here at LCC all those years ago as an editor and having to think about what you are creating from different perspectives. So strategically, you're thinking about the art, but then you're, like you just said, you're thinking about the people that will need to create that, or at least centering everybody, stakeholders in that conversation. So for example, in education, I often work with universities and they're like, "Oh no, that's the student matter. This is a leadership matter." I'm like, "You're a university, every single matter is a student matter."

Matt Moseley:

Yes.

Karina Maynard:

So that's my mindset.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. And sometimes, does it take an external voice to remind people?

Karina Maynard:

Definitely. I think it's quite often easier to be an external voice because you're invited in, and often people have, most of my work is through referrals or people who have worked with me on something else or experience or something like that, so there's a familiarity. It's about relationships and people understanding what you are about from the outset, I think. Then people can be more open. Obviously, once you get in the organisation, not everybody there knows you already and they might have their guards up. But again, I push for real honest conversations about the issue at hand, do it with compassion and understanding.

Matt Moseley:

Does that sometimes take a little while to get people to that place?

Karina Maynard:

A little while, but luckily it through radio and interviews, I'm quite good at helping people to open up and feel comfortable that they're not actually going to be attacked. It's not a setup. And again, that's my reflective practice that I always need to do so that I can be present in a way that is healthy for that environment.

Matt Moseley:

Great. So I think what we'll do, if you don't mind, we'll move into the create section.

Matt Moseley:

What we've been doing is asking our inspirational guests, if they have a provocation or a thought idea that they would like to pose to our community of students. So has anything come to you in terms of a provocation that you'd like to send?

Karina Maynard:

I think, especially being here today, it's made very clear that a lot of those childhood passions have been indicators of what my future creative self was going to look like. And I think it could be a useful exercise for people to think back, as young as they can remember as a child, what was that thing that you were just passionate about that you absolutely loved from day one? Secondly, I want you to think about what was that thing that you were always doing that people could never pull you away from, that thing that you had to be doing? And thirdly, I want you to think about what you care about? What cause do you feel passionate about? So to put that into perspective, when I was very young, I was passionate, obsessed with music and creativity, always have been. The thing that I was constantly doing was reading and writing, I was obsessed with people's stories.

Karina Maynard:

And in terms of cause, I'm really passionate about creation, the world, and looking at how it all fits together and our part in it. So when you've thought about those three areas, I want you to create almost a manifesto, a statement of who you are. And I think it's really important that it's in the positive, but just really written in the affirmative. And then refer to that. And know that it can change, it can be refined as you live and grow. That's fine. We're constantly evolving and transforming. But I think it's important for you to reflect and acknowledge who you are and your creative potential because people aren't necessarily going to shout it out to you as you're walking down the street.

Matt Moseley:

I think that's brilliant. I think that's brilliant, Karina because I think what that does as well is it gives students an opportunity to reflect on whether or not their current creative endeavours are really authentically embodying the change or the reaction that they want to see.

Karina Maynard:

Absolutely. And especially because you're talking about multi-hyphenate careers, as creatives we quite often do many different things. Even if it's in the same sector or the same art form, we do so many different things, it's important to remember. And also, you get involved with creative projects or processes before they've been created. So quite often you can't envision how exactly it's going to come together. So part of learning what works for you and what doesn't work with you over time through these experiences, is to keep coming back to that statement and see how true that statement is for you in six months or a year's time, and look back at the work you're doing and think, "What's working for me? What isn't working for me?"

Matt Moseley:

So, Karina, thank you ever so much for your time today and for your generosity and your expertise and your incredible insight in this area. It's been really brilliant to talk to you. So thank you for your time.

Karina Maynard:

Thank you. It has been absolutely wonderful to be here, to speak with you. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you so much.

Matt Moseley:

Great. Thank you for listening to this week's Teach, Inspire, Create podcast with Karina H. Maynard. I hope you've been able to take some valuable information from this episode and apply it in one way or another to your creative practice. Join us next week. We'll be talking to artist and writer, Annabel Dover about the nuances of having a multifaceted career, and how to continually find new and exciting creative ideas. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to rate and review us wherever you get your podcast. And if you want to, please do share your responses and feedback on social media, using the hashtag #ticpodcast. See you next time. Bye.