Finding your voice with Eli Turay

Eli is a composer, producer, DJ and teacher. He works with young people teaching media and music and also composes and produces music for commercial clients amongst other things. 

 In this episode, Eli explored the importance of community in his creative process, delves into how he produces for multiple clients at the same time, and discusses how his teaching practice and production work have informed one another. 

Instagram handle: @dj_eli.t 

Website: https://www.elituray.com/music 

Discover more about UAL Awarding Body qualifications.

Transcript

Matt M: Hello and welcome to the Teach Inspire Create podcast. I'm your host, Matt Moseley, chief Examiner for Art and Design at UAL Awarding Body.

Matt M: Each episode, I speak to artists and creative industry leaders about three main themes, teaching, inspiring and creating. We talk about their experiences of teaching and being taught, who or what inspires them, and we explore how they foster creativity in their work with the hope of showing you that there are infinite ways to be creative in the arts.

Matt M: Today my guest is Eli Turay. He's a composer, producer, DJ and teacher. He works with young people teaching media and music, and also composes and produces music for commercial clients amongst other things.

Matt M: In this episode, I'm interested in talking to Eli about his creative process, about how he produces for multiple clients and about how his teaching practice has informed his production work and vice versa.

Matt M: There is a transcript available for this episode. Please click the link in the episode description so you can read as you listen.

music

Matt M: Hi, Eli. Thanks very much for joining us today on the Teach Inspire Create podcast. It's great to have you.

Eli Turay: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me down there. It's great.

Matt M: Lovely. So I think we'll get stuck straight into it. We usually start off by talking to our guests a little bit about, kind of, their education.

Eli Turay: Yeah, so my education is pretty basic, really. You know, I went to an average school in a town called Ipswich, a small town. But I think my interest and engagement in music and media came from my dad. And it's a bit of a family business really, so the education happened at home a lot for me.

My dad was always making films. He was a producer, acid house producer, so we lived in Brighton when I was younger for a time. So he'd go to all the raves and come back and tell us about what kind of music's big, what kind of stuff's happening. And we always had a studio at home. So I was one of those students that I see now that can do everything at home and just came to college because that was happening at college too. But I was a bit ahead of what was happening, at college and uni.

Eli Turay: Formally, teachers that inspired me were at uni more so than at college. And they inspired me because of what they were doing outside of what they were teaching us.

Matt M: So were you always keen to get into the industry thing? Is that kind of what excited you?

Eli Turay: Yeah, I just liked picking people's brains. I was always quite technical before I was creative and I think you get two types of people, someone who's just creative out and out and then the other person who's technical first. And I was definitely technical first. And at uni there was one particular teacher, I used to go to his house, dunno if you're allowed to do that anymore, but we used to go to his house, a couple of us after class had finished and he'd just sit down and just talk us through what he's doing that night and what sessions he's got that night.

Matt M: So he was sharing his own practice with you and what he was working on?

Eli Turay: Yeah, he'd let us be involved. He'd throw mixes of artists that he's working with. And this was in the days of grime. So I would get like a lot of these mixes from uh DaVinChe who’s a producer in grime and I'd get their mix and I'd get to have my own go at it through one of my lecturers.

Eli Turay: So they were the people that inspired me the most.

Matt M: Being really close to those mixes, did that kind of make it feel like it was all possible?

Eli Turay: So there genre grime, right? It's not very, very old. And at that time it was completely new. So it wasn't a massive thing. It wasn't, it was achievable. And if you know any of these artists in this genre, like Jammer for example, my sister used to record at his house around the corner.

Eli Turay: Sharky used to come to my house and record. So we knew these people. So it was achievable cause it was still at our level. But it was just interesting that the uni I was at were connected with what was emerging at the time. And I think that inspired me more. It wasn't disconnected from my reality.

UNI

Eli Turay: I went to University of East London in 2004 and I studied, I can't remember the name of the course.

Eli Turay: That's how important the course was. It was Music Theory and Production I think it was called. And it's a tech based course, but I don't think I went there for the course. I know I didn't go there for the course. I went there for the location and for what was happening in music.

Eli Turay: And I think for myself at that age, on the outside, I appeared quite confident and I'd done things before that, but I felt like the step, the gap was smaller because of the location, the proximity to the studios and the managers and the DJs and the course. So for me it seemed a bit easier to slot in, in that way.

Matt M: Yeah. Do you remember the first time that you played someone something that you'd made?

Eli Turay: Oh, so in terms, we have to go back. So in terms of music, before we got to uni, we were doing, like, I'd done a Peel session. That was the first big thing I'd ever done, right? John Peel, Radio one. And so I remember the first time playing him music because he's local to Suffolk and we'd harass him.

Eli Turay: My dad was our manager at the time, and we'd just find him places and say, “Hey, look at us, listen to this”. And then we got onto one of our local stations, and he'd heard us from a few different places, like from there. So then he let us do a Peel session at Maida Vale.

Eli Turay: So that's the first time myself really got heard by a lot of people.

Matt M: How old were you when you were doing the Peel session?

Eli Turay: Uh, 17, I think. 16 or 17. And we got like a 12 hour session in the studio, so that was the first time I'd sat with an engineer and they critiqued what I'd done professionally.

Eli Turay: And they, what surprised me was they didn't think it was amateurish. They kind of were like, “oh, okay, this is what you're doing”. And they started using the language I hadn't heard before, but I felt like I fitted in then. And, we got a really good reception from our peers and people we looked up to as well.

Matt M: So how many of you were there at the session?

Eli Turay: Uh, five. So we were in a, we're in a group, right? A garage crew. And I was the producer.

Matt M: What were you called?

Eli Turay: Alliance Crew, I dunno what that means. We got together in I think 99, two people, me and my cousin, started making music in my dad's basement. And then eventually we attracted a few other people and just brought up a following in the town. 

Eli Turay: There were three MCs or rappers, a DJ and a producer. And at the time I didn't know of any other kids making their own music in that style. So you'd have bands and stuff like that, but you didn't have anyone making kind of electronic based music on their own.

Eli Turay: It was a matter of just getting friends around and experimenting a lot with, with a lot of the gear that we had around the house.

Matt M: When did you make a decision that was the direction that you were gonna go in and was there something that informed that?

Eli Turay: Yeah. I think as a typical 17 year old, I just wanted to go where my interests were. I wasn't thinking about a career, I wasn't thinking about the next five years.

Eli Turay: And my interest and my feedback was all coming from music. At the time we were selling CDs out of, literally out of our car. I don't know anything about design, but I've designed this album cover. I've done a photo shoot, printed up 5,000 CDs and sold 'em for a tenner each.

Eli Turay: So we thought, “well, we can make money from this”. So from then on I thought, “well, if I can do this, I can, I can make money from this as a career”. I've got some remixes in at the time for some record labels, got some vinyl presses done, sold some records, so I just followed that.

Eli Turay: I think now is the only way, then it was, we were just seen as DIYers, you know, a bit like punk. We were just making our own stuff and putting out and seeing what happens.

Eli Turay: Now you kind of have to be your own, unless you've got management, you have to be your own spokesperson. You have to write your own kind of press releases or contact people and record and mix, engineer, make the video. We'd done all these things.

Eli Turay: I don't think it's changed. I think, um, it's caught up. Now we are direct, direct to consumer. The big difference was then, you had to have local acceptance first. You can't sell any CDs unless people around know who you are. So you created a buzz through radio and that's what we done, created a buzz through radio and then meet people.

Eli Turay: We said, I remember standing outside high schools and waiting for the kids to come out and like saying like, we've got this event. Come to this event and then sell CDs at the event. Now we can do that. But your influence has to be, of course, online, you have to have presence that way. It's a different language, but it's the same direction.

Eli Turay: You know, you are connecting directly with the young people, but you need to know the hashtags or the times to  post or the people to get to retweet or share your stuff.

Matt M: So it's still about community and still about relationships, but just in a different way?

Eli Turay: Yeah, completely, completely. The difference is, I guess, the gatekeepers are different now. If you are, if you're selling locally, the gatekeepers are the people who get you onto radio. The people who have the venues that you can hold your events at, and they're a little bit easier to touch. You can get to those, someone who knows those people, whereas you don't know the person who's getting the Spotify playlist sorted as easily, you know?

Eli Turay: So it's sold to us as if we can now go direct to consumer really easily, but actually there are still people there controlling that process. It's just not labels necessarily.

radio

Matt M: You mentioned radio as being one of the kind of gatekeepers of that. But you start, you have your own radio show, don't you?

Eli Turay: Yeah. So that again goes back to my dad. He established Ipswich Community Radio in 88. So how old was I in 88? I dunno, five or six. And so we'd go to work with him every day. After school, we'd go to work and do the late shift and stay around till 10 at night and then go home again. So radio has always been, community radio has always been part of who I am. I remember growing up there was a job where you'd have to sit in a studio and just wait for something to go wrong.

Eli Turay: Wait for stuff to shut down and then just turn it back on. I remember being 10 years old doing that for my dad. And I used to do it for a particular show called The Pink Palace, which was Ipswich’s first lesbian show, chat show. And I'd sit down and just consume all of these conversations that I would never have understood or, you know, been able to be part of as a 10 year old.

Eli Turay: So I grew up around radio, but also,  again, going back to my dad, he managed a club called the Caribbean Club, which is our local black community centre in Ipswich. So he managed that and all the events that went there. So between the two I was kind of making these connections with my community, but also with how to kind of broadcast our wants and needs and also call for people to come and collaborate.

Eli Turay: And that's kind of where I've always been.

Matt M: So for lots of people, entering a radio station environment might be intimidating, but you were quite familiar with that. But did you find actually presenting your own show was useful in terms of learning to talk about your music and about other people's music?

Eli Turay: Yeah. Do you know where it comes from? It comes from, in schools, and this is really important in schools to give young people their own space. And in our school, honestly, I think they were running out of ideas. I went to quite a bad school, I won't say the school's name, but it doesn't exist anymore. 

Eli Turay: And they didn't really know how to deal with us young men and so they ended up giving us a space that we could just control whenever we didn't want to be in class.

Eli Turay: And it was like a room and it had a little stereo in the room. So we'd just go in there sometimes. And for me, I got my confidence through like starting to teach people about music. I used to read credits. That's what I'd love to do. So I play music and I'd do a competition and I'd play a bit of a song and I'd say, “who engineered this?”

Eli Turay: And all the people would try and guess, or “who produced this?” so it was almost like a class. And I took that to radio. So when I was old enough to have my own show, so I was 15. I wasn't old enough until then, cause my show was late, it was 10 till 12. That's what it would be. I'd go on the air and I'd just say to people or teach people about who's making what, because I felt like that was something that no one else was doing.

Eli Turay: Everyone was just listening, whereas I was trying to understand where was this studio, who was engineering, who was mixing?

Matt M: What were you, what were you playing and talking about?

Eli Turay: At the time, I thought of myself as the local Tim Westwood. So if you know those times, like mid to late nineties, the only way you could hear American hip hop was through Westwood 10 to 12 Friday, Saturday night. So that's what I would play. I'd go to Virgin megastores and get all the American imports and play them on a Friday. And that, that was my show. I look back at videos from that time and I was just an arrogant 15 year old kid who just wanted to show off and be the person that knows everything. And radio was just a great megaphone to show off really.

music

Matt M: Being a producer, collaboration must play a significant role in your, in your work. And you've got some longtime collaborators, haven't you? Dells and other performers that you've worked with. Are there any kind of ground rules or strategies that you employ when you start collaborating with someone?

Eli Turay: Yeah, I think it depends. If you're a younger person, it's definitely a good idea to collaborate with people who are on your level at first. I started collaborating with people who are older. So Jah Warriors were a local group from, they’re a reggae group in the seventies who had really big success, but they also happened to be from Ipswich.

Eli Turay: And so I started recording them and some of their vocalists and keys players and I was really timid and didn't know how to get in. So I think I kind of established myself by treating it as we'd learn together making music. So for example, Aubrey, who was a keys player, he'd understand his role and I quickly discovered he doesn't understand the bigger picture that I do.

Eli Turay: And so I haven't got that skill, but I can do the rest. So I'd teach them what I'm doing and talk to them about what I'm doing and talk to them about my limitations and just be really honest about that early on. And I find that people respect you more when they know that you can tell 'em what you can't do. And we can kind of solve that part together and then collaborate on the things that we're best at and lean on those things. It's hard to do as a younger person to, for someone to pay you, especially if you're getting paid to do it, to be honest and say, look, this is what I can do. 

Matt M: You've developed a very refined sort of sonic ear to be able to kind of say, so when you listen to something now you are able to just go, that's the problem.

Eli Turay: I wouldn't say I know what the problem is, but I can definitely hear what's being done. I don't think I am the taste maker who knows what's good and what's not though. Um, my skill is being able to identify what you need and  creating that and putting a bit of myself into that too.

Matt M: By deconstructing the work that you aspire to make and then essentially making that work repetitively, you eventually find your own avenue.

Eli Turay: That's interesting you say that because that's exactly what I think most people do. You learn something from watching something, from, like you say, deconstructing it, working out which parts are which. But then there's another step after that where you start to discover what you do and what you are good at or literally putting yourself into that if it's writing, producing or whatever.

Eli Turay: And I think part of the issue with music sounding the same now is that step’s kind of missing, because you learn how to do something or copy something and then you just push share. And there's no, there's no process afterwards. There's no time to kind of consider who you are and how you make it your own.

Eli Turay: There's a lot of frustrated people who are saying, “why isn't my music connecting?” whether that's if they're trying to sell it commercially or if they're trying to do sync work or whatnot, why isn't it connected? And a lot of the time it's because they've got really good at doing what other people do. And, and they're not really finding out who they are. You find out a lot of who you are through collaboration, I think. And like I said, that reaction, playing something, turning around to see what people are doing, is how you discover what you're good at.

Eli Turay: But if you work in a space on your own a lot of the time and then you share it, that process is over and you, and you're not going back to refine that.

working with brands

Matt M: I was just gonna ask about your creative process, when you are going to make a track or you're going to produce something, do you have a process of working?

Eli Turay: It's changed a lot, I think. I make music for different reasons now than what I did 20 years, 25 years ago. So initially the process was, if we're talking technically, the process was laying the music down. I was into drums, so I would always lay drums down.

Eli Turay: I'd listen to vinyl sample kick drums off from my dad's records and put 'em into a software called Cubase, and then just line those up and just kind of make a groove and then build on top of those drums. I'd work with a keys player called Aubrey, he’d come in to play my keys around whatever samples I have, and then I'd play baselines on that.

Eli Turay: And there were no rules. I'd make whatever I like, whatever feels good, and if someone likes it whilst we're working, that's what gets made. And if they don't, it ends up on a hard drive. And I've still got those hard drives today, and I still go back to those hard drives actually now. But now I make music for different reasons. Normally now, I create with an end goal in sight and it's normally I'm working to a brief.

Matt M: So you've got a client or a customer?

Eli Turay: Yeah, so it is, it's slightly different and it is very much more like a, it's a job, so it's research, it's looking at the reference tracks and working out how I can sound like a reference track, but not the same as a reference track and put myself into it.

Eli Turay: So for example, so there's a particular brand that we were collaborating on, it's a fashion brand. And they wanted, at the time, Kaytranada was very hot as a producer and they wanted something that sounds exactly like a Kaytranada track.

Eli Turay: So I was trying to work out how to, what they really meant. Cause I don't think, especially with brands who are not musical, I don't think they know what they mean. They just know what they like and they don’t which parts of that music they like. So I was trying to give them examples of things that sound familiar or have the same energy. And every revision would be like, make it closer to that reference track. And then when we got to that reference track, we were pretty much the same in a different scale. They didn't like it. And then they went back to one of the earlier ideas. So now a lot of the collaborations are about showing people what they could have before you give them what they want.

Matt M: Right, yeah.

Eli Turay: And that depends on, honestly, that depends on how confident you are that you're not gonna lose that job by doing it. 

Matt M: But it takes quite a lot of maturity and experience, I suppose, to manage those client relationships. But do you find that you've had to distance yourself slightly so that you don't feel a sense of offense or you don't mind those revisions when they come in?

Eli Turay: It's horrible. I still get it that, I still get that feeling when I send something away and it's normally sending away from where I am. It will get sent to the art director or whoever it may be, the brand. And I know it's coming back and that's the hardest period of time. And then the email comes or the phone call comes and you think, “oh”. 

Eli Turay: And it comes back. And the reason I feel like that is because I know the revision notes are gonna be things that are not musical and I've got to decode what they mean.

Matt M: Right okay, cause they're about their brand image or they're about something that's…. 

Eli Turay: The last, with that kind of stuff, you're the last person, the last thought, the last little bit of money they've got left on that particular project and they just want it done in like two days or, you know, whatever it is most of the time. So they come thick and fast, the revisions, and you've got to be able to  respond really quickly.

Eli Turay: And sometimes you don't have that spark.

Matt M: Yeah and you also don't have that moment in time to be too, you know, to have too much feeling about it.

Matt M: You've just gotta do what you're being asked to do. Is it difficult because you feel like that first edit that you send, that's the bit you've done that with your in full integrity and all of your kind of knowledge and experiences in that initial track, and then making those changes is hard?

Eli Turay: Yes. You do. I say this to young people all the time as well, when they're getting feedback, as a teacher. The first one that you put all of your effort into is the limitations of what you can do. But then the collaboration comes with the feedback, whether you think they're talking rubbish or not, I guarantee by the time I've done version 10 and they've accepted one of them, I feel like the whole process was really worth it.

Eli Turay: And I've learned something in that process. I haven't learned necessarily how to be more creative or a new skill or a new instrument. But I've learned how to meet someone else's expectations and I've liked something about what they've suggested that I've done. And I never would've done that without their input, however bad I might have thought that input was.

Matt M: And I guess if you get repeat business from them, you feel closer to knowing what they might want from the offing anyway.

Eli Turay: Yeah. I love working with brands now. I hated it at its start. I thought it was really difficult, because in my mind, I am a hip hop producer and I make kind of like dusty hip hop music with samples on and two bar loops with someone rapping about something that no one else cares about over the top.

Eli Turay: I love that. That's what I would do every day. And then you get asked to make like a Christmas track and the reference says, “sneaking around” and you've gotta make music that sounds like sneaking around.

up to today

Matt M: Fast forwarding to today, you've got quite a varied career, quite a portfolio career, haven't you? What are all the things that you are currently working on?

Eli Turay: Okay, so I used to work currently loosely, but you know, on a week to week, depending on what it is. So I run a studio, and mostly in my studio I record, so I'm recording artists. I was doing a voiceover for a museum the other day, for example, so that can vary. I DJ weekly, I teach, maybe I should have said that first, but I teach full-time at an FE college. And I have a small podcast that I do with my friends as well. And we kind of, uh, use that as an outlet too.

Matt M: What's the name of your podcast?

Eli Turay: Where The Keys At podcast. Don't ask what it means cause it's a bit of an in joke. But, yeah, that's our podcast.

Matt M: Yeah, you mentioned teaching. How long have you been teaching for?

Eli Turay: I’m now in my 13th year teaching.

Matt M: Right, yeah. That’s quite a substantial amount of time. And what interested you in going into teaching in the first place?

Eli Turay: Okay, so I fell into teaching, I think that's a good way to do it as well.

Eli Turay: I wasn't, I didn't want to teach necessarily, someone just identified that I'm always teaching in some sort of way, whether that's… I worked with young people quite a lot through the Caribbean Club. As I got older, I would train people how to do things, how to make music, how to shoot videos. So, I was in London and coming back weekends, I used to DJ on a Sunday night in Ipswich and then DJ in London on a Thursday.

Eli Turay: And someone said to me, “well, you're here on a Sunday, could you teach at the college on the Monday morning and maybe go back to London on the Monday?” So I started teaching radio on a Monday morning at Suffolk College. And then eventually I just came back and ended up working there full-time.

Matt M: Yeah. And how do you manage all of that?

Eli Turay: I think I need those other things to keep teaching, first of all. Over the span of this kind of last 10 years so much has changed in what kind of content's being created that I need to stay current 

Eli Turay: But if you are currently doing something every day after work, you go to work in the morning feeling fulfilled, you can put something that you learned that night into your job that day, and it works the other way too. You're working with young people who approach things completely randomly. They don't have a method of working, and sometimes you see things and the way they approach and you take it for yourself and, and kind of do that in your own time.

Matt M: But you offer them, they come to you sort of raw…

Eli Turay: Yeah. I offer them me, and it's just like working for a client. I sit down and think about, “well, why am I doing this job? Why, why not somebody else? How am I unique as a teacher and what can I teach them?” Students gravitate towards that. I gravitated towards my teacher who was telling me all about what he does, and I can't even remember what he taught me in terms of criteria.

Eli Turay: I can just remember gravitating towards him and his approach. So I do like to approach things in that way. I reference the things I do in the outside world too. But you have to give a bit of yourself, I think, in teaching.

Matt M: Yeah. You mentioned that sort of influential tutor that you had, and it was about their engagement with the industry that excited you about what they were doing, wasn't it? And it gave them, did it give you a sense of credibility in that individual because they were producing stuff for current artists?

Eli Turay: The credibility was there but his enthusiasm’s what interested us. He really cared about what he'd done. And he really wanted us to care about what we were trying to do.

Eli Turay: And he cared that much that he wanted us to come and see it and try it. And he wanted to give us feedback all of the time, not just cause criteria said he had to give us this feedback or get us involved, and it helped that he was working in that industry. Of course. And I'm sure it was attractive for a lot of people.

Eli Turay: However, for me, I just wanted to approach things in the same way that he does.

Matt M: How do you design a good project for a student in the media area?

Eli Turay: So I teach in both music and media, and I think I approach those slightly differently. In music, so I approach it with a job in mind. So we frame it around… I've just done a DJ project for example. We frame it around the role of a DJ and what kind of work could you get with those skills.

Eli Turay: And then I start to teach the kind of fundamental skills built in based on what I've done in my past. Whereas in media, we approach it more as a team and we think about the types of skills that are needed in the industry today. And we work out between us how we can teach those things authentically without, cause young people can pick up if you don't really know that skill.

Eli Turay: So we have to lean on our strengths and see how we can kind of lead them in the right direction in that way. And the projects are normally based on criteria, but it's based on what skills we have within the team as well.

Matt M: And do you think it’s changed in the years that you've been doing it?

Eli Turay: It's an interesting question, has teaching changed? I think young people have… the types of young people that come to FE, especially media and music have changed. We now compete a lot with tutorials online, believe it or not, as a teacher. We have young people that come in that have more kit than we could get.

Eli Turay: You know, they can respond to the changes quicker than we can. So it is now more about you as a teacher in terms of teaching and what you bring to the role, rather than what they can access, because they can access that anyway. They can work out how to go onto Photoshop and, you know, blur the background out quite easily on YouTube.

Eli Turay: And so it has to be more about us and our approach and the individual kind of approach to teaching people. 

Eli Turay: It's now about what I keep talking about and discovering who you are and how you can affect the thing you want to do and what you can bring to it.

Eli Turay: And through these kind of small tasks that they do at college, they start to realize what their role is in a group. What they're like, what skills. people appreciate, what kind of feedback they get from older people, or working in the community through work placements, how they can contribute. And that's the big differentiator I think, between having a bunch of gear and YouTube tutorials and going to an FE college where people who work in the industry are there to help.

Matt M: That's really interesting. Cause we refer to those things as the creative attributes, but what we are talking about is kind of collaboration, isn't it?

Eli Turay: Some of our students are not very technically minded on a very technical course, come out and do really well.

Eli Turay: Just because they've kind of understood how to, how they can be accepted in a space or be listened to in a space. And they've gone on and done really well. Some of our students, you probably know, they really surprise you the ones that go on to be really successful. And it wasn't always the person who was the best on after effects.

Eli Turay: And it's very rarely that person. It's the person who knew how they could get their message across or their idea across and then be able to kind of make it happen.

music 

Matt M: We ask all of our guests who come onto the podcast to offer a provocation to our listeners. So the provocation can be something big, something small. It can be a call to action or an idea, a reflection, a thought, anything.

Matt M: Do you have a provocation in mind that you wouldn't mind setting our audience?

Eli Turay: This is gonna sound quite corny, but I truly believe in volunteering in your local community, like finding the people who are local and establishing yourself as part of that network.

Eli Turay: And what we have in the Ipswich black creative community, we've got a WhatsApp group and we're all part of it, and we just post what we're doing every week. And there are so many opportunities to reach different people, to show your art and to kind of burrow ideas and develop ideas together. And from there you can bridge out and start to work in bigger circles.

Eli Turay: But that's where I get a lot of my influence that comes into my work. 

Matt M: Brilliant.

 ending

Matt M: Eli, thank you ever so much for your time and your generosity today in sharing all your expertise and insights. So, thank you ever so much. 

Eli Turay: Thank you guys, brilliant.

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Matt M: Thank you for listening to this episode of Teach Inspire Create. A massive thank you to Eli. What a fantastic guest, just so full of insight and expertise, a really brilliant person to listen to. We hope you got loads out of it.

Matt M: If you want to know more about Eli and his work, you can follow him on Instagram @dj_eli.t or his website www.elituray.com. You'll find a link to both of these in our episode description.

Matt M: We really hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you have, please make sure you subscribe and why not share it with someone else who you think might be interested? And please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. This is so helpful to us to understand what you think of the show. Thanks for listening, and until next time, take care of yourselves. Bye-bye.