Crafting stories for screen with Anna Ssemuyaba

Anna Ssemuyaba is a screenwriter who has worked on many different projects across film and TV. She was named by Deadline as one of the UK's 10 Rising Stars of 2020 and featured on the 2019 Brit List.

In this episode, Anna talks about how she got into the notoriously competitive screenwriting profession, how she gets inspiration for her characters and storylines, and we will hear what her advice is for young, aspiring writers.

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Transcript

Matt: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Teach Inspire Create podcast. I'm your host, Matt Moseley, Chief Examiner for Art and Design at UAL Awarding Body. Today, my guest is Anna Ssemuyaba. Anna is a screenwriter who has worked on many different projects across film and TV. She was named by Deadline as one of the UK's 10 Rising Stars of 2020 and featured on the 2019 Brit List. I'm going to be speaking to Anna about how she got into the notoriously competitive screenwriting profession, how she gets inspiration for her characters and storylines, and we will hear what her advice is for young, aspiring writers. There is a transcript available for this episode. Please click the link in the episode description so you can read as you listen.

Matt: Anna, thank you ever so much for joining us today. I think we'll just go straight in with a little bit of where screenwriting came into your life. Do you have any early memories of where stories or literature or words became really important?

Anna: I loved reading first, before I loved and consumed a lot of television. I really loved Meg Cabot. I think it's big for young girls. I was obsessed with her. She used to write under different names. One, Patricia Cabot, which is maybe easier to work out. One was Jenny Carroll. Basically, I mapped this woman. I just loved everything that she wrote about. And, you know, mostly sort of stories about teenage girls and slightly heightened worlds. But, I don't know, I think I always looked up to stories about people a little bit older than me, things I could relate to. But, also in worlds I found really exciting and interesting because I thought my own world was so boring. Just, being a regular child.

Matt: Did you find yourself already sort of heading towards a particular genre of literature? What did you, kind of, go for?

Anna: When I was young it definitely had to be a teenage girl with an interesting life, a romance plot. But also, saving the day in some way. She had to, sort of, be very, be quite powerful, and not supernatural, but be very skilled. There had to be something I really admired about her. And there maybe had to be a hot guy, sort of, appearing, helping her out, but she was the one doing everything.

Matt: So it had to have relevance to you. Was that important, so you were starting to, kind of, see in characters things that you saw in yourself, or that you would like to see in yourself?

Anna: It had to be someone that I wanted to be. I think, also, you know, these books, I think they were probably from the nineties and it was like sort of that era in America where there's like the geeks and the cheerleaders and it had to be like a cool girl wearing Doc Martens who was sort of cleverer than everyone else and could see things other people couldn't see. So I think it was definitely very aspirational to me. And because all of her characters were in such interesting worlds… they would be quite grounded characters, but in sort of like supernatural light type worlds. So I still could really connect to them. And, yeah, I was obsessed.

Matt: And so, was that, sort of, mirroring on television and film that you were watching as well? Or were you watching sort of a bit of everything?

Anna: No, I really… if it didn't have a teenage girl in it, I was not interested. And then… TV, there was a show called My So-Called Life, which was an American teen show. I discovered a DVD of and became absolutely obsessed with it.

Matt: I know it well.

Anna: You know it well! Gosh, the way that destroyed me. But then I also… I was really fascinated by workplaces and so, adult life was always very intriguing to me. I thought there was… I would’ve been about 12 and there was nothing more exciting, nothing I wanted more than to just be 25. And so then the workplace drama became really fascinating. Just because it was so exciting and there were different worlds that were much more intriguing than my, like, boring school and that kind of thing.

Matt: When did it start becoming apparent to you that you'd start to like creating some of these worlds?

Anna: It's funny, I don't think I actively thought that even though I was always writing. It sort of sounds like… I never, I would never have said to anyone I wanted to be a writer, ever. I can sort of barely even say it now, even though it's my job. I just was always writing, and my brother always says to me, he's like, “you thought you were so secretive”. Obviously, back in those days, it'd be the family computer in the living room. He was like, “obviously, we could all see your word document, like quite big there as you were sitting around”, but it was my, sort of, private thing.

Anna: And I really wanted to work in film and TV, but I just didn't see how it was possible. My parents both had really practical jobs and I didn't know anyone in the industry and so it all felt a bit beyond me. And then when I was 16, I did work experience at a documentary company called Dangerous Films, and it changed my life, because suddenly I was behind the scenes and I could see all these different jobs.

Anna: I think, most importantly, I could see adults who clearly were able to pay for their lives, who had jobs in this industry, who had careers. And so, even though documentary wasn't the main thing I wanted to do, that was so exciting to me. I was definitely nervous, and there were so many things I didn't really know. It was quite basic things of, you know, your jobs are making teas and coffees, and I'd never used a cafetiere before. And I also did a lot of research for them, they had a lot of science documentaries, and I kept working for them in my holidays. It just made it feel possible.

Matt: Yeah, so you became quite comfortable in that environment as a result. Do you recommend to people that it's important to explore those opportunities, to see behind the curtain and understand how things are put together?

Anna: Oh, completely. I think the business can seem really opaque because it, because it is. It's so unlike anything else and the only way to demystify that is to, you know, try and be in the room where things are happening. I had so many sort of runner and researcher jobs where it was just obviously my job to get tea and coffee or take notes. And that's where I learned so much, but yeah, I think demystifying it as much as possible, so it doesn't seem that daunting. And I think if I hadn't had those experiences early on… I did a lot of runner and researcher jobs when I was a teenager and when I was at university that then allowed me to get my first job at the BBC after I graduated. So, they set me up for my career, but they also just made it feel possible. And not just to me, to my parents, who obviously were not keen for me to go into an industry that doesn't have a path.

Matt: But this idea of networking and starting to, kind of, create a supportive network of people is really important then?

Anna: Completely. I spent so much of my time just guessing email addresses and that was something people would be quite impressed by and I don't really know… things would be a bit different now, but I would email everyone. And I think just knowing that most people quite like being flattered. They like hearing that you're a fan of their work and are probably willing to go for a coffee and that was. And I think I learned that probably from Dangerous [Films], back when I was a teenager, I was sort of seeing this notion of going for a coffee, it was obviously not something I was used to, but that that was what this industry was based on. Like, there were so many meetings that start that way and it's not, maybe in another industry there would be the name for the meeting or there'd be a title for it. But everyone was always going for coffees and lunches.

Matt: Right, yeah, yeah.

Anna: When I was at university, I was always emailing people. I'd invite producers that I wanted to work for to come and do a talk at my university and also promise to take them out for dinner and stuff, which was paid for by the media society there. Anyway, they would do these talks and then afterwards I'd hit them up for work experience. And so it became my way of meeting so many producers. And I remember thinking maybe they wouldn't want to do it, but actually, producers are so behind the scenes that they want to talk about their careers.

Matt: They don't often get the opportunity, I suppose, to be recognised for what they do. Who did you invite along?

Anna: Literally everyone. I wrote to the heads of every film and TV company in the UK, like Working Title, all of the documentary companies. And it's interesting because there aren't that many production companies in the UK and so I would just just look at films that I like that have been made, or TV shows, and then I would find the name and just write to them.

Matt: So you were aiming high though?

Anna: I was aiming really high. “Who runs the company that makes this? I'll probably email them and their assistants”. I'd learned about CCing in the assistants, talking about how I love their film and their work, which I did. And then, just begging them to come and give a talk.

Matt: People are quite pro the opportunity to mentor, aren't they? I mean, you've had mentoring, haven't you?

Anna: I have. When I started working at the BBC, I first worked on Front Row on Radio 4, and then moved into Drama. BBC have a, sort of, grad scheme, grad job, called the Production Trainee Scheme, which it is quite hard to get into, but it's one of the few jobs in this industry you can get without knowing anyone. You just apply online and because it's the BBC, they pay a pretty fair wage, you know, for an entry level job, so you can live in London on it. And it was incredible. You get to work in these different areas of the BBC, you get trained in all these different areas. It's just invaluable, everything I learned there. And when I moved into Drama, there was a woman there who was Head of Development called Esther Springer. And she just did so much for me, mostly just really letting me be in the room. Like I… whenever they'd have big meetings, I would just sit in the corner taking notes. And everything I learned there is the reason I have a career now. And that just came from her taking me under her wing, and she'd risen to quite a high role, but yeah, at the time she was probably the only person of colour working in that department at least. And so, she really believed in helping people and getting young people into the business and teaching them. And because there's no real way to learn any of this stuff, like it's just experience really, and so she really did that for me.

Matt: Are there any things that you saw or learned in those rooms that have stayed with you through your career?

Anna: So most of the meetings would be script notes and so it would be her talking to really incredible writers like Peter Moffat or Riz Ahmed and so many other great people. And so I would just see the process of script notes and how it works. And what the whole business of development was that I eventually went into… because I understood the production side, the making of everything, but there's a whole other side that's developing ideas and working them up so they can get to the stage where they're green lit. And so, she would let me watch how you do that, how you break down a script, how character works, how story works, just really the bones of everything. And so much of my job was just reading the scripts and giving my opinion and learning how to give your opinion and what that really means, like what notes are most helpful. And so the whole process, I got to learn just by watching, just by being in there and that was, that was, it was really invaluable and I think one of the hardest things to get in this industry because you can only learn on the job. You can only learn by being in the room.

Matt: And were you sharing writing with her that you were producing?

Anna: Not at that time. At that time, I thought I'll work in development and hopefully work my way up to being a producer. And I was always writing on the side, always. Development is a proper job with a salary and I could see how that life would work. I didn't quite understand how writers lived and so it didn't yet feel like I could make a living and so even though I loved writing and would always be doing it, I thought it might just live on my laptop forever. It was only after I left the BBC I think that I then had… she asked me what I wanted to do, I think I then had enough confidence to share with her. I had to feel like my scripts were good enough, I think, for her and her time. Which I'm really glad for because they weren't good enough at that point, so it's good that I was learning a lot and just reading as many scripts as possible before I told her.

Matt: I'd like to kind of get into the weeds a bit about, you know, how a script develops and how it starts, but is it a process to develop a script?

Anna: I like to think about something for a really long time. Like months and months, it will just be [00:12:30] sort of noodling away in the back of my head. It'll be something that I just found interesting, intriguing. I find people endlessly fascinating. I think most people are so weird. In a great way, there's always something about someone that's surprising or intriguing. Usually for me, it starts with a character that I'm interested in and then hopefully the world will come. Before I worked in TV, I was naive about it.

Anna: So I think I would often pursue ideas or worlds that wouldn't really work for TV. And I'm probably now a bit more practical because I've developed a lot of things and I've seen the process and I know kind of what does and doesn't work. But yeah, it usually starts with something that intrigued or confused me.

Matt: And it's something that you, generally, directly observe, something that you… so, are you taking seeds of ideas from people that you know in your own life?

Anna: That's obviously, anyone who knows a writer, is always like, “are you, like, stowing this away? Is that me?” If I ever do take something from someone in real life, I'll bury it deeply in a character that's so different from them, that hopefully they won't know. But it's more experiences or, yeah, things I've observed. Or, just usually something that confuses me or something I want to know a little more about. I'm also really inspired by documentaries, things I read. I've got a project set in the art world that was inspired by these art world documentaries I was watching during the pandemic.

Anna: So, there's so many different ways, but it has to live in my head for a long time before I'll write it down. If it makes it to the writing down stage, then I think it's a bit of a goer. But otherwise, yeah, there'll be things I just think about and they disappear. I'm quite strict with myself about not writing it down sometimes because I need to have really thought about it.

Matt:  [00:14:30] Could you give us a bit of a definition about what a screenwriter does and what that role is? And I think people are interested as well about how that maybe crosses over or differs with scriptwriting or screenplay or that, kind of, different aspects of the role.

Anna: Sure. I think I'd say a screenwriter is someone who creates stories that will be produced for film or television. I mean, that's a really key aspect of what people often don't think about. If you're, if you're a novelist, you're in charge of the final product, right? You finish that document and you send it off. Whereas, you know, as they say in film and TV, the show or film is made three times. There's a version you write, there's a version that's filmed, and then there's a version that's edited and they can often not resemble each other at all. And it's, it's really collaborative, which is something you also don't often know about until you're working in it, like the development process involves a lot of people, as does the production process, the editing process, the acting, obviously, the people who you know bring the words to life and create it. So yes, we are the creation of stories.

Matt: Are you the initial starting point, do the ideas come from the screenwriting team?

Anna: Yeah, from me. So, I work on other people's shows as well as my own, so I'll write an episode of someone else's show and obviously that's their creation and I'm just coming in to do a piece of it, but with my own stuff, yes. I come up with my own ideas that I develop, as well as book adaptations as well, but yes, they have to start with me and be something that I'm intrigued by.

Matt: So when you're working on someone else's show, are there additional challenges in that in terms of having to embody an existing character, or to maintain the sort of look and feel of a, sort of, visual experience?

Anna: There are. I like to work on shows that are so different to my own and that are really different from my own style, because I think I learn a lot that way. And I also don't feel like I'm sort of cannibalising my own projects. Like I've worked on three shows that have come out this year. One's a plane thriller, one's a period drama set in the 1870s, and one's a modern rom-com. Like, they're so different, such different genres. And they're all genres that I don't do for my own, sort of, original things. That's the exciting challenge, I think, is taking what someone's done, embodying that world, and then trying to fit around and come up with ideas that fit within it. But every show I've worked on is different in terms of how much you can do. Like if it's a more long running show, there's more confines, but then with, often smaller shows, there is more for you to do, frankly, because the budget's smaller, so people can take more risks, and every show is different. If you've got a really collaborative head writer who would have created that show, hopefully you can work on your ideas, but stick to the tone, because you are trying to capture someone else's voice, you are in someone else's world. And for me, that's the attraction, because it's a break from my own stuff, and it's not as, sort of, emotionally taxing, I might say.

Matt: Do you have, sort of, common character or narrative threads though, that you, whether consciously or subconsciously, build into your writing for any show?

Anna:  [00:18:00] No, I think I've really worked on very different things. I wouldn't say that's necessarily the norm. I think the bigger distinction usually is if you're a comedy writer or a drama writer, but I, I really made a concerted effort to work on quite different things and then luckily once you've done it, you get trusted in those genres.

Anna: But for my own original projects, I think maybe there is a slight common theme of British institutions. I'm really intrigued by them, how they work, but also looking at them from different perspectives, perspectives that we haven't seen before. So I think that would probably be quite a thread. But honestly, character is the most important thing to me. I could quite happily write two people just sitting opposite each other and nothing happening. Obviously, you can't do that for TV, there has to be a lot happening. So, I think I would then choose quite a big world that will naturally put in more of a plot, but in terms of my own preference, characters are all I care about.

Matt: Is there an example of a character that you've developed which you could expand on a little bit for us about how you came to visualise them and then transfer that into the screenwriting?

Anna: So yes, I have a film project which is set in a Catholic school. I went to a Catholic school, where'd I get the idea from? It's the first script I ever wrote, but that also feels a bit weird to say because there's been so many different iterations of it and it's changed so much. It was… originally, I started writing that maybe a decade ago and it's had lots of different lives. But interestingly, the characters have never really changed, but they've just moved further away from me. I think when I started writing it, I was maybe still at university or just graduating, so I was a lot closer to being a teenager and it was more, maybe, directly inspired by my teenage life. But as I've developed it and it became a story, it feels completely divorced from me. It's so not my teen experience anymore. It's a composite film, you know, three act structure, but it was definitely inspired by a world that I thought was interesting, so Catholic schools in England, but I hadn't seen anything about them. And also the nuances of that world and what it felt like to be in it, but it's had so many different lives and it's changed.

Anna: If you're a novelist, you grow up reading books, right? So you understand the form of a book, but that is not obviously the same for film and TV. And so, yeah, I don't know how you'd become a TV or film writer before the internet. Like for me, all of my favourite shows, I just found the scripts online. And so that was how I understood the form of the script. Like they… I remember My So-Called Life, which I loved, I would study that script and how it works. And then it became my job to study scripts and break them down. So that was how I knew how a script was formed. But in the writing, it's interesting, every writer is different. For me,  the first draft is the worst draft, and that's just me getting words down so that there's a page count. And it's basically the headline for the things that are working, but it's a real, just, blur, and that's not very fun for me. But everything after that is really fun. It's all in the editing and the kind of making it work.

Matt: Yeah, so it's a process. Where are you kind of getting your kind of inspiration, your fun from?

Anna: Yeah, if I'm, I think because I don't write for theatre at the moment, going to watch it is just joyful for me. It's fun, it doesn't feel like work. But yes, if I'm sort of feeling a bit, I guess, creatively bereft or just a bit exhausted, I just want to take my mind out of things and just go and view something or even do some exercise. I love that. But yeah, definitely being active is important for me.

Matt: So is writing block a thing? Does that happen?

Anna: I don't know. Writing block feels like quite, like, a romantic thing from, like, another era… when you have deadlines…

Matt: I imagine it being very angst ridden, lots of, kind of, staring into the distance.

Anna: Someone's bringing you whiskey… But then, TV is based on deadlines and having to deliver things. I mean, there are often obviously days where it's just not working. I write basically every day. And so obviously, most of them aren't going to be winners, but there'll be days when I've just sort of been typing and crafting and at the end I just wonder what I've even achieved. I also think I don't have a very romantic view of writing. I'm quite practical about it. So, my attitude is just sit down open your laptop and eventually…

Matt: [00:23:00] So other creatives that we've spoken to on the podcast talk about the importance of doing something towards your practice every day to keep that consistency and so, you know, writing is like a muscle is it, I suppose you have to exercise it?

Anna: Yeah, I think, I've also just never not exercised it, like, I hadn't really thought about that. I have just been writing my whole life, and so I can't really imagine a life where that wasn't true. And even when I was entertaining, you know, having more practical jobs, so I could live and pay the rent, like, I never, I never thought I wouldn't write. Or, even times when I'm frustrated with the industry, or there's things in, you know, my career that I find stressful, I will sometimes wonder if I will always, you know, make money from being a writer. But I never could envisage a life where I don't write.

Matt: So, if there's someone listening who maybe feels the same, that they've got this inner need to write, but they haven't made a start yet, what would you suggest would be a good, sort of, way for them to begin?

Anna: I think for film and TV specifically, if you want to go into it, then the number one, I'd say, is reading scripts of shows that you love, just so you see how it works and you see the structure of it. But especially when you're starting out, it's just, yeah, just writing. I mean, it's one of those really boring pieces of advice that is sort of just do it, but I think trying it, seeing how it works, seeing what you enjoy doing, seeing if you enjoyed the process. Because, I always think it's funny, a lot of people want to be writers and they try it and realise they actually don't really like it. I don't know, that's not necessarily the part of the industry that they're intrigued by. And so, just spending as much time as you can working on it by yourself before you show it to anyone. Like, it's funny, like a lot of my friends share work with each other and get notes from each other and that's part of their process. That's not part of mine. I don't know, I think I'd find that too awkward. All my projects are with producers and I like getting notes in a formalised structure from someone whose job it is to give me their notes. I wouldn't want to send it to my, not because they wouldn't have great ideas, but because I just would find it too much.

Matt: So there are spaces that people can immerse themselves into to meet other writers and to maybe develop things that way if they want to?

Anna: Yeah, I think I… I've made so many writer friends through writer's rooms, through working with them and then we've gone and become friends and often work together again. I'm mostly in drama. I've done a bit of comedy, but a lot of my comedy writer friends are also stand ups. And so, then they have a whole network there of people who are… they have the performing and writing aspect in it.

Anna: I always say the comedy world is a lot more social than the drama world because everyone in drama is a bit older and just wants to get home to their families, which I actually love. Because it's very professional and boundaried, which is what I like. It's just so important to have people, even if, you know, I don't work with them often, but just sharing your stresses.

Matt: But yeah, they understand the experience and they have empathy.

Anna: And give you such good advice.

Matt: [00:26:00] What you're saying essentially is it's just really demystifying what is, kind of, one of the magical industries. This idea of just making a start and just doing something consistently and things being more will than skill in the first instance.

Anna: Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it, that it is more will than skill when you start because, you can teach someone structure, like you can teach someone how to form a script really. I often did that when I was in development with newer writers, I would, sort of, teach them how to craft a script… either someone has an interesting voice or they don't, it's there or it's not. And it's also entirely subjective. In terms of writers I like, I love fast-paced dialogue, I love characters that are very intelligent and funny, but that's not everyone, you know, some people prefer an action thriller where it's short sentences, there's lots of things happening. And that will just never be… if I'm looking at a script and it's just blocks of description, that's not really going to excite me. I want two people talking. I want to get into that dynamic and then get into the world. But that's a particular preference. If I read a script that could be written by anyone and that doesn't feel, just, particular or doesn't feel like it has something to say, I'm not in any way interested in that.

Matt: Is there anything that you've seen recently that you would hold up as a really good example of scriptwriting?

Anna: It's a series called The Capture, that's on BBC, and it's set in the world of deepfakes, which sounds like an odd pitch, but it's about so much more than that. Season one is about a soldier who gets deepfaked, and then season two is set in the world of politics.

Anna: But it takes these “what if” questions and then just explores them so intriguingly with the most exciting characters. And I think for me, that kind of thriller wasn't something I thought I'd be that interested in and I started watching it because I was looking for an actor that I was casting in something else and then obviously lost weeks of my life to the show. And I think that one is so intriguing to me because it it's not, on the tin, something that I would go for and then I just became obsessed

Matt: As the screenwriter, do you then collaborate with those other individuals in the process to share your vision of “when I wrote this character, I was potentially thinking of this actor or a particular type of actor for the role”?

Anna: It depends. So, the amount of control you might have over a project changes as you get more experiences and work your way up. If you're a screenwriter who's also an exec producer, then that's when you really get a say in everything. In the casting process, in the hiring of, you know, hair and makeup and all these different things. Traditionally, if you're sort of newer, no, not really, but that project I was talking about was a short film. When I've worked on a show that has a smaller budget, I'll be on set, you know, hiding behind a door with the “boom” over there, and you're so involved, and you're physically so close to it. Whereas if I've worked on a project, a big show for a big streamer that has, you know, millions for the budget, you're physically further away, the sets are literally bigger and the process is bigger. There's more people involved. There's more at stake.

Matt: What's it like being on set? Imagine it being an incredibly exciting atmosphere?

Anna: Frankly, as a writer, you don't have a job on set. So, actually being on set is a bit awkward because, well, for me, you just don't want to be in the way. And especially if you're on set for a show that's not yours, you've just written an episode, I always joke that you feel a bit like a Make-A-Wish kid, because everyone is sort of brought up and introduced to you, and you're like, “oh, I'm the writer!” and they're like, “oh, well done!” and you're sort of nodding and smiling.

Matt: When you’re on set, you see your vision being made as something slightly different. Does that, do you ever have that conflict?

Anna: Oh, always. It's never quite going to be what you imagined in your head. It can be better, but usually the feeling is so exciting that people have brought your idea to life, even if it's a bit different.

Anna: I find talking to actors just so fascinating. I did a read through for one of my projects and cast the actors and directed that, and that was the first time I'd ever heard my words aloud, which is also quite unique to film in TV, because I think if you're a theatre writer, you will often have workshopped it and brought actors in, but in film in TV, usually, you don't hear of it unless it's being filmed, which can be so far down the process. But, I was lucky that my script, they paid for a read through so we could hear it, and sort of develop and pitch it, and it was so funny talking to the actors and hearing all their questions, because every single question was about something I hadn't thought about. Their perspective was always so intriguing to me or, mostly there'll be things where I think it's so clear and they don't get it or don't know what's going on. Because when something's lived in your head for so long, you can't imagine seeing it any other way than your way, then having someone come in and ask you about it was just invaluable.

Matt: [00:31:00] It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, it's such an interesting perspective on the artistic process, as you said, about, you know, as a novelist or as a painter, you're in charge of that, kind of, final outcome, but being part of this large process… is it sometimes difficult to balance that? Your artistic, creative integrity, your vision, your ideas, and then obviously, the business element of film and television production?

Anna: It is and, I think, all writers are different. I write maybe quite similarly to when I had a nine to five job, like I just work during the day normally, all day every day, and I think a bit of that for me is, it is entirely creative, like it is emotionally taxing, it's stuff I'm really connected to, but I also want to have a career. And so then I try to treat it the way my parents treated their jobs, you know, and I think having that perspective and that practicality is maybe just sort of what I'm like, but I do need structure in my life, and I think the life of a writer… you're freelance, you're self employed, and I try to impose as much structure as I can for a life that is deeply unstructured.

Matt: Are you able to let us understand a little bit about how, you know, your current career is structured and how you manage some of that?

Anna: Yeah, in the UK at least, all writers are freelance unless you’re under a production company. But yes, you're a freelance writer, meaning that you just have to have a range of projects that are at different stages that are your own, as well as other people's shows as well.

Anna: Like I, of my own projects, I'll have ideas that are at pitch stage, which is just, you know, a few pages that I've been working on and developing that idea. Or, I'll have projects that are at script stage and I'm in that development process. But then I'll also have, if I'm writing on someone else's show, that script to kind of contend with. If any project has production dates that are set in, that is the most pressing project and that's the one that you drop everything for. Because you have to get that one done. But it's interesting, you have an array of different projects at different stages. And you often don't know which one will go further or faster. And it's usually the one that you sort of least expected to, suddenly that one's moving much further ahead. And the one that you think “this is all worked out and this is ready to go and it's so makeable” will be the one that you end up labouring on. Like, it's a lot of unknowns and you just sort of have to go with the flow a little bit as a career.I think it's maybe why I have such set days and set lives because there's so little you can control of the industry. You never know, you know, what commissioners are looking for or what's gonna be in or what they don't want to do anymore. Like, it’s sort of the joke of the industry that one day they'll say, you know “we want teen shows” and everyone develops teen shows then they pitch them and they’re like “we actually don't want teen shows, we only want sort of adult romantic dramas” or whatever.

Anna: And so you, so I kind of don't, in terms of my own stuff, I don't really follow the trends because you never really know what they're looking for. I just have to work on things that I think are good and hope that it will, you know, fit for whatever channel.

Matt: There's that sense of authenticity, isn't there, in that you're, you mentioned about how important it is that the, you know, that you can resonate with the characters and writing the stuff that feels exciting to you, feels like a positive way forward.

Matt: [00:34:15] What stage of a script or some screenwriting, what stage does it have to be at when you take it to a production company or does a production company come to you to commission something?

Anna: As a writer, I could go into a meeting with a production company with an idea that I want to talk about. If you have a relationship with them, you can talk when there's nothing written down and you might have this meeting, this nebulous coffee I talked about, and then if they like it, they could commission a pitch from you… a pitch or a treatment, which are sort of interchangeable words that just mean a document that has words on it that explain what your story is. So that would usually be the first step.

Anna: And then you might work that up and then you could take that to a channel, to a Netflix, a Channel 4, a BBC and the BBC might buy that, develop that. Or, you and the production company could commission the script from you as well. That's called developing like in-house. So you could then develop a script and the pitch with them, get that to a very good condition, which could take years. And then take that into a channel where it's a bit more of a fully realised idea. Personally, I prefer the second route, like, I don't like to pitch it to a channel until I've got the script and I've got an outline which would have a series outline basically of what the entire show would look like, what every episode would look like. I don't like to take it out until I really know what it is.

Matt: Is that because you like to maintain that creative control as long as you can?

Anna: Yes. I think that's it.

Matt: Seems, like, totally understandable because obviously… so, if you take the idea and you're already working collaboratively with a production company, they would have an influence over the, how that thing develops.

Anna: Completely. And so when you get the channel involved, they've got an opinion as well. But I, yeah, I think for me retaining creative control, it's a long process of development. Like, that whole process can take, like, at least a year, but I don't mind living with it for a while. And that's also another thing with these ideas and why I like to think about it for a long time, because if you're going to make it, that minimum is going to be a few years. And so I really want to know that I want to live in that world for that long. If it's going to be an original project, I have to really care and I have to be so desperate to get it on screen in some way. Otherwise, it’s not worth it.

Matt: So Anna, is there something that, things that, people can go and watch of yours that are currently available?

Anna: Yes, so I've worked on other shows and I've got episodes of those that are out and available. This year I wrote an episode of Hijack that's on Apple, and The Buccaneers that's on Apple as well, and then Smothered that's on Sky Comedy, and also Upload which is on Amazon. Really crossed my bases with streamers! And then I have a short film, it's on ITV that people can find.

Matt: Brilliant. Okay, so, finally, we always like to ask our guests to set what we call a creative provocation. And that's really just for any of the listeners who are inspired by hearing your journey into screenwriting and would like to do something to take some action in that space. Do you have any ideas, thoughts, things that you'd like people to maybe make a start with?

Anna: Yes, so I think I mentioned, for me, character is the most interesting thing to me. Character and dialogue. And so, I would encourage people to come up with two characters and write a scene based on them and start off with them at odds. Try to find harmony, or maybe don't achieve harmony by the end of that scene.

Matt: Great, a bit of conflict!

Anna: A bit of conflict, yeah.

Matt: Lovely, I love it. Thank you, that's brilliant. Thank you to you, Anna, for your time today. It's been amazing to get an insight into this process. I'm sure you've helped some aspiring writers immensely today, so thank you.

Anna: Thank you.

Matt: Thank you to Anna, brilliant insights throughout. If you want to know more about Anna, please follow the links in the episode description, which will lead you to things that she has written and you can watch. In the episode description, you can also find some further information about two fantastic schemes. One is the BBC Production Trainee Scheme, and the other is the Channel 4 Screenwriting competition. Have a look at these as they're a great opportunity if you're interested in getting into screenwriting. Hopefully you've enjoyed this episode of the podcast. If you have, please do subscribe and share it with a friend. It's really important for us to get your feedback so we can keep improving this podcast for you.

Matt: Thanks for listening and until next time, take care.