Speaking the language of games with Natalia Hinds

Natalia Hinds is an award-winning voice and performance director. Through storytelling, character work, and collaboration, her work explores how voice, movement and imagination bring digital worlds to life.

In this podcast episode, Natalia discusses her journey from dance school and musical theatre to directing performances for major video game studios. She talks about the craft of voice acting, the importance of reading out loud, confidence, mentorship and representation in the gaming industry. Natalia also shares insights into performance capture, working with actors to build believable characters, and why curiosity and play remain at the heart of great performance.

Website: https://sites.google.com/view/nataliavoicedirector/

Instagram: @_nataliahinds

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Transcript

Matt: Hello, and welcome back to the Teach Inspire Create podcast. I'm Matt Mosley, Chief Examiner for Art and Design at UAL Awarding Body. In this podcast, I speak to a fascinating range of people who work all across the creative [00:00:15] arts about how they've made their way into their roles, their impactful teaching experiences, and the people and things that inspire them. Through these conversations, we hope to show you there are endless ways to belong in the creative world.

Matt: Today my guest is Natalia [00:00:30] Hinds, who is a performance and voice director. In this episode, I'm gonna be talking to Talia about her experience of working with Triple-A game production companies, about how she coaches people to produce the perfect voice for a game character and her journey [00:00:45] through performance training and her work as an actor.

Matt: Hello, Talia.

Talia: Hello, hi.

Matt: Thank you ever so much for joining us on the Teach Inspire Create podcast. It's wonderful to have you here.

Talia: Thank you.

Matt: So, going back slightly, I was wondering if you had a [00:01:00] first or early memory of performing that really stands out?

Talia: Gosh, that's a, that's a question. Do you know what? I think it was in my school Christmas play. I played the star, so I had a rainbow glittery like wig on and a blue [00:01:15] glittery dress.

Talia: And yeah, I remember singing, I think it was Reach for the Stars, and I think, from then, I think even before then, I knew I wanted to be in the performing world. My journey's been here, there and everywhere, but at that point I was like, I really wanna be an actress, [00:01:30] really wanna be on stage, really love performing and singing. So yeah.

Matt: Nice. You got the bug sort of really early.

Talia: I did, I got the bug. 

Matt: Did you have any early inspirations, or people that you admired or aspired to?

Talia: I was talking about this with my mum [00:01:45] the other day actually. One of the things that inspired me was the weather people. So weather men, weather girls on TV.

Matt: Right, yeah.

Talia: And when my sister was first born, I'd put her in her little carrier facing the TV, and mom would sit down and [00:02:00] I would essentially mimic the weather girls, the weather guys, just in that sort of here we’re going to have, here it's gonna be sunny. It's all very much like a full performance, and then just watching musicals.

Talia: I read [00:02:15] a lot, I still do, but I read a lot as a kid, a lot of different stories of fantasies and whatever. Soaking up as much information and then wanting to perform it. I kind of got that itch for it.

Matt: Okay. And so when did you start kind of having some training or [00:02:30] studying?

Talia: For me, I started at dance school in Croydon from the age of five, six, up into the age of like what, 21, 22.

Talia: I was dancing, singing, doing all of that training, and then went to an amazing school called the Betty Wivell Academy, [00:02:45] and then got into the Brit School.

Matt: Right.

Talia: So that was kind of the big thing at the end of all this training. I got into the Brit School at 16 to do musical theater. Big up Brit School - they're amazing. Yeah, it just developed from there.

Matt: How was it at the [00:03:00] Brit School? I mean, it's this, this very famous place that we hear a lot about, but what is it like to actually be a student there?

Talia: Do you know, like in Fame Academy, when there's those moments where they dance on tables, that actually happened, right?

Talia: I just wanna say a lot of people are like, is that really, is that like high school musical? Yes, [00:03:15] there are moments where it really was. I think it was really formative, I met some of my closest friends at Brit School. School and I think it was just a safe space to explore. Back then and now you could just walk in and be whoever you wanted to be and you could wear a costume to [00:03:30] school and still be taken seriously because it was art and it like art was a serious thing, and I thought that was awesome. But also I did History and English A-levels to top up as well.

Matt: And so were you starting to see a certain area of performing arts that [00:03:45] you wanted to head towards?

Talia: Up until that point, I was like steadfast musical theater thinking. Yeah, that's definitely what I wanna do. And I still absolutely adore it, but I think I found my niche in acting. I love Shakespeare, always have, I love words. I love prose, I love [00:04:00] poems. And just being able to express that through character and also seeing stuff on TV. EastEnders back in the day of, ‘You're not my mother. Yes, I am. Get out of my pub’. That sort of stuff. I saw Denise from EastEnders and thought, ‘wow, dark skinned, black woman’.

Talia: Absolutely [00:04:15] crushing it on screen. I could be her and everyone's like, you look like Denise. So like, well, obviously that's where I should go. Having grown up with that and then obviously Whoopi Goldberg, who is a huge idol of mine. Seeing her in just everything that woman does is incredible, and thinking, [00:04:30] again, black women, strong black women with locks. I currently have locks and like thinking, wow, okay, that's also another avenue. So those people are becoming more and more in my eye line. So yeah, from there, I then went to drama school.

Matt: Yeah. And so do you [00:04:45] have any favorite parts that you played around that time or any favorite performances that you were in?

Talia: Oh, what did I love? I played Ado Annie in Oklahoma.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: That was fun. We did Parade, which I think is a beautiful musical if you haven't seen it. And throughout these [00:05:00] performances, the thing I loved was the different departments, different strands came together. So some of my best friends are in the lighting team, some of my best friends were in media. 

Matt: Oh, okay. 

Talia: Because they would design the posters for the show, do the lighting and sound for the show. It was that whole sort of intermingling thing.

Matt: And do you think having an understanding of how a stage runs, does that help you in terms of your performance?

Talia: I really think so. I think nowadays a lot of performers are more savvy to it, but there was a time [00:05:30] where, you know, you sort of got on and did your job and got off again. And I think you can't really be the best performer or person in an environment, if you don't know it, it really pays to sit behind the sound desk and see what's going on.

Matt: Right? Yeah. 

Talia: Sit behind the lighting or like [00:05:45] build the set with the set designers, like paint something on a set. That's something I always, every set I've been on, I've painted something.

Matt: Okay.

Talia: Yes. Little, little thing, and there's an appreciation of it as well. There's a pride in it, a sense of pride,

Matt: Yeah, because there's lots of people out there who've… They've got talent or they've got [00:06:00] aspiration, energy, they've got something there, and they really want to kind of explore that within creative arts, but confidence can be a big barrier. 

Talia: Oh yeah.

Matt: Is there anything that people can do to help build that initial confidence? To give something a go [00:06:15] within performing arts?

Talia: Yeah. I mean, oh gosh. It's a tough one. 'cause it's very much a self-made journey, isn't it? There are moments where I struggle with imposter syndrome and you walk on set and I'm like, oh, I know I'm directing this, but ah. It's about [00:06:30] having a tribe, having people around you that you can talk to, whether they're in the arts or not, that understand you fundamentally as a person, having those roots and then having a separate - if it's the same tribe, then great. But having separate routes that are within your industry, even if it's [00:06:45] just one person that, you know, is also an oil painter or is also a lighting technician, or is also an actor, a mentor, as it were. Having someone you can connect with. 

Talia: Some of the things I do is work with different companies and stuff, and limit break mentorship, connecting [00:07:00] these people and being that mentor because sometimes you just need someone to go, Hey, I know you're scared, but it's all right.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: You're doing great.

Matt: Fantastic. Of course, having fantastic someone believe in you is a massive thing, isn't it? As well about engaging or interpreting or [00:07:15] understanding text, which I think sometimes people do really struggle with. Is there a process or a thing that you do to break down text so that you can feel connected to it?

Talia: Yeah. Well, firstly, I'm a massive nerd, so I read a lot.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Talia: And [00:07:30] it is weird, but I read out loud. People need to do this more often. Please. Anyone listening, read out loud. Well, no matter what it is, because you gain a different level of understanding for hearing something vocalized.

Talia: I know I'm saying that as a voice and performance director, so I'm [00:07:45] so biased. But my first step to breaking down anything is reading it out loud 'cause there's a flow to it. There's a breath to it. And then when it comes to Shakespeare is the prime example, understanding the meaning behind it. Again, it's just finding the layers, [00:08:00] starting with the character work Once you know your character and then your intention, I say this all the time when I'm working in games as well. A lot of people come in and they see the words and they panic and they go, oh gosh, I haven't learned this. I don’t how to say this. And I say, it doesn't matter, [00:08:15] What does the character mean when they're saying it?

Talia: They can say a really long, long…

Matt: Okay, so about intention?

Talia: Yeah, yeah, very much about intentions. What are you meaning and what are you trying to tell the other person?

Matt: So is it sometimes as much about the kind of inflection, if that's the right word, or the emotion of… [00:08:30] rather than what's actually even being said. How are you gonna say it?

Talia: Exactly. The intention, the intonation, the musicality, how you're gonna say it? But then it's my job as a director to layer that up for you, like a cake right. It's my job to get to the point where it's finished. It's [00:08:45] your job to come with the ingredients.

Matt: Just on that, on the reading out loud thing. I mean, is it fine to read out loud on your own, or should you be reading out loud to someone else?

Talia: I totally do it by myself.

Matt: Okay.

Talia: Crazy.

Matt: That's, I was, that's what I was, I was hoping you were gonna say [00:09:00] really, because obviously that, I suppose even reading out texts for people who maybe are having low confidence initially can be intimidating, can't it?

Talia: Yeah. 

Matt: So do it on your own and it's, uh…

Talia: Do it on your own, practice on your own, and then read to [00:09:15] whoever's around or just out loud in general. I think being on your own is the easiest way to build the confidence.

Matt: So how did you [00:09:30] begin to transition into the professional area industry after, after education, after training?

Talia: I graduated from drama school. I got an agent and then I started auditioning for things. So back then, the voice world was not [00:09:45] as well known as it is now I think. So I was mainly doing tv, film, theatre. Did a one woman show. 

Matt: Wow. 

Talia: Uh, which was petrifying and exciting.

Matt: Yeah. That must have been terrifying.

Talia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it was absolutely terrifying. It was the Oval [00:10:00] House and also Polka theater in South London. Loved it, but petrifying - it was for children. So it was me playing one character and then like, I think there was 11 to 23 other voices around as well.

Talia: [00:10:15] But that was what I was talking about set. It was such a small cruise because it was just me as the actor that I was getting to know the set in theater for the first time, really like intimately. Knowing the lighting designers, knowing the costume and props and [00:10:30] makeup, and it was really nice to find out how things run properly.

Matt: Was it intentional to do something like that early on in your career to kind of challenge yourself? To take something on of that scale?

Talia: It kind of worked out that way. I [00:10:45] never thought I could ever do a one woman show, but I think that's something to be said of the arts. I don’t know one person in the arts, whether you are a painter, a decorator, a set designer, actor, whatever it is you do, I don't know one person that's [00:11:00] actually had the journey straight to where they've gone.

Talia: There’s always been something where they've curved or like taken on another project they didn't think they would do, and basically grow in a way they didn't realize.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. There's always growth in there, isn't there? Doing [00:11:15] these, these difficult things.

Talia: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Can we talk a little bit about auditioning, because that might be something else that scares people. I mean, what's it like to audition and how did you prepare for them?

Talia: I think the training really [00:11:30] did help. With auditions, just learning through drama school and through Brit School and then dance school and whatever, I'd done a lot of those sort of performance tests and exams before, so I'd done that from a young age, and so I don't think I necessarily [00:11:45] felt unconfident with it.

Talia: I think it's just prep though, because then speaking to people who hadn't done the drama school route and had gone from like college or whatever, into being an actor and not necessarily having that training. It was just learn your lines. 

Matt: Right. 

Talia: It was as [00:12:00] simple as that. Learn your lines, learn your intentions. And I think nowadays, I'm gonna sound old saying everyone has access to internet. That's not what, I'm not like 85, but I think nowadays it's so much easier to find resources online.

Matt: Right. So to do a bit of research.

Talia: To help you with that. Yeah. [00:12:15] Way easier.

Matt: Yeah. That's really helpful I think 'cause I think people do worry a lot about, particularly that transition from being in the education setting into the professional setting. Did you ever audition for something you really wanted that you didn't get?

Talia: Oh my [00:12:30] goodness. Loads. Yeah 'cause I was auditioning for what, 10, 15 years.

Matt: Okay.

Talia: Yeah. Yeah. So I've, I auditioned for loads that I didn't get and like some that I really thought I would get.

Talia: I'd get to the final stage of like five rounds of auditions. I was like, this is it. This is [00:12:45] my big break. I'm gonna be in this film by a very, very, very well known actor, and it's a fantasy franchise and you are in spaceships and it's gonna happen and I wouldn't get it. And you do feel that [00:13:00] knock, like you, your confidence does go down. I'll be lying…

Matt: Yeah, I was gonna say, how do you bounce back from that?

Talia: I always take time. I always take, I always take a moment to like reflect, not on what I did wrong 'cause when I first started it was very much, oh, what am I doing wrong? And then like talking to people more and [00:13:15] getting a mentor and just like listening to talks.

Talia: Whoopi Goldberg, of course, being an idol of mine, listening to what she said and realizing that actually sometimes it's not. What you've done, it's the fact that they had something else in mind, and that's okay.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: It's got [00:13:30] nothing to do with you.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: And what did you learn from it, and who did you meet at the audition that you might see again?

Matt: Yeah. So that's important then to take that reflective time to think about the connections that you've made and the experience that you've had, and see if there is something that you can take from it.

Talia: And also just to be [00:13:45] proud you got the audition. Like that is so basic, be proud that you got in the room or someone called you back, or you've been sent something because that's showing that you are doing something right and you are wanted, and you know the door will open if it's meant to be open.

Talia: And if [00:14:00] not, I'm meant to be in that room 'cause five years later, they'll call me back again or I'll meet my best friend in an audition, which has happened, but you never know.

Matt: I wanted to, if it's okay, talk a little bit about representation in performing arts. Yeah. Because obviously you've mentioned Whoopi Goldberg, Denise… 

Talia: Denise from [00:14:15] EastEnders.

Matt: Yeah, so a couple of these role models. But how do you feel things have changed if they have changed or if they've improved or not improved enough. What's your thoughts around that?

Talia: It's a tough one, so separating it, me being an actor previously [00:14:30] versus me being a voice and performance director, now, I've been doing that for, gosh, 11 years.

Talia: My main work is Triple-A video games, and in that industry, as far as I'm still aware, and I really hope I'm wrong when I say it, but I am still the [00:14:45] only black British female doing Triple-A video games in this industry.

Matt: Really? Okay.

Talia: That's very specific. And this is so I've been told, yeah. 

Matt: Right. 

Talia: And it's been 11 years and there are black British females doing [00:15:00] voice directing. I think there's one, maybe two now, but they're doing audio books or indie games. And so for the Triple-As, it's just me.

Matt: Can we define what Triple-A games company is?

Talia: Sure. Sorry. Yes. So indie games company are smaller [00:15:15] studios that aren't umbrellaed by massive international studios.So they're very much people putting together their companies and using their own budget and their own money to make the video games. Triple-As are backed by larger companies [00:15:30] and they are funded, like heavily funded, and therefore they are more recognized and have more of a weight when it comes to names of studios attached.

Matt: Okay. So really these are the organisations that have the responsibility to [00:15:45] be the change, aren't they? Or to kind of, support representation improvement within the industry.

Talia: Absolutely.

Talia: I think so. I think so. There is a movement, especially since lockdown, and that opened up a whole new, wonderful, in my opinion, [00:16:00] door to creatives where accessibility became a thing.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Talia: You could record at home as a voice actor. As a voice director, I was directing Shanghai, Australia, New Zealand, whatever, from the comfort of my own home, and I think a lot more people got into the arts because they had a lot of time to then [00:16:15] do the arts at home. So the creative ball kind of rolled for a lot of people...

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: ..with that. But when it came to representation, I think it's been a tough one, being the only one out here, I won't lie. But again, I [00:16:30] found my tribe, I found my community. I work closely with BAFTA games. I'm full voting member of BAFTA and BAFTA games, and they're a great community that I've been with.

Talia:  Black Girl Gamers are incredible and pinnacle when it comes to all types, not just voice directors. They're actors, they're [00:16:45] artists. They're just wonderful in the gaming community. And also having done research, seeing the other communities open up in other races, creeds, sexualities, there's just so many now, communities that are supporting one another and across the board [00:17:00] and being multi-directional. And I think that's lovely. Now, people coming out, I think they're seeing themselves, they're seeing someone who's close to, or is, what they represent.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: And that's beautiful.

Matt: That's great to hear. And I think also it should be said, props to you [00:17:15] for creating your lane for yourself for 11 years. Being the only person kind of making that happen. That's great.

Talia: Thank you.

Matt: So yeah, can we talk a little bit about voice directing? Could you give us kind of brief overview of what a voice director does? [00:17:30]

Talia: Yeah, it's kind of what a film director does. So the actor would come into the studio depending on what studio I'm working on, or remotely, and we'd sit down and talk about the character, what the video game is 'cause nine times out of 10, they've signed NDAs, [00:17:45] and if it's the beginning of a project, they won't know what the game is. Because it'll be in code. So whatever video game title would be that we use a code name for it. So, and they're only given a limited script as well for that reason. NDAs, Non-Disclosure [00:18:00] Agreements is what NDA stands for, and it basically means that you can't talk about the project, you can't mention any characters. You are liable to be sued if you do pass on any information. 

Talia: So yeah, they'll come in and I will talk about their character, the game, the scene we'll be doing. They'll get [00:18:15] into the booth and I will guide them through the scene.

Matt: Yeah. Is there some strategies that you employ then to start? Because I guess that there's quite a lot riding on the relationship between you and the person that you are directing.

Talia: Yeah. Cup of [00:18:30] tea.

Matt: Nice. Yeah, yeah…

Talia: That is my secret, cup of tea. Like when you are coming into the studio, it doesn't matter how seasoned you are, there's gonna be some form of nerves, and the nerves can either be like the excitement type of nerves, or nine times out of 10 it will be like, [00:18:45] oh my goodness, first day on set, or first day in the booth kind of nerve for that project specifically.

Talia: And so, I say this time and time again, but I can't help you or you can't get the best performance out of yourself if you are just worried. [00:19:00] So let's sit and chat. And like talk about, I don't know what you've seen on TV or like what you're into at the moment or what music you're listening to.

Matt: Okay, yeah. So kind of loosening up, just kind of trying to dispel some of the pressure of the situation. [00:19:15]

Talia: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: So when you start working with someone on their character, how much autonomy do you have around the character? Or are you following quite a strict set of instructions?

Talia: That really depends on the game, because some games, [00:19:30] and again, if I've been working with a company for like several years, they'll be like, ‘oh yeah, T knows what to do, just give her the script and she'll just create the character’. But if I'm with a new company, of course, sometimes the writers are quite specific, [00:19:45] so if I'm working with a different species or whatever, they've got very particular rules that have to follow, like with intonation and musicality, and so then I'd sit and talk to the actor.

Talia: Okay, so obviously we assume you've done your prep work because you're an actor [00:20:00] and you're a professional, so. What else can we bring to this? What do we need to do? And then physically as well, how you stand in the booth.

Matt: Okay. So there's a big part of kind of embodying the character as well as just voicing the character.

Talia: Oh, a hundred percent. [00:20:15] I'll come onto performance directing 'cause that's slightly different.

Matt: Okay.

Talia: But as a voice director, it's still very much your body in the booth. And so, I am quite a physical person, I'm sitting here flapping my arms as I talk, like I'm really into that. So if you're a character and say you're a [00:20:30] species with, I don't know, three foot bunny ears on top of your head, when you are talking, I need you to stand as if you've got three foot bunnies and that limits your movement, but it also changes the way your resonance falls, whether it's in your chest, your tummy, your [00:20:45] throat. And that essentially means whether you are uptight and squeaking as you talk because you've got something on your back and so your shoulders are tense.

Talia: Or whether you are so loose and low that you're fluid because you're speaking from your tummy, and you're like slumped. So we talk a lot about how like [00:21:00] you would stand in character.

Matt: I'm just imagining you, in a booth with someone and they've got to be like an alien jellyfish or so. Do you mean, is that kind of, does that happen in your working day?

Talia: It really does. Which is so, so [00:21:15] wild. But yeah, I think there's been floppy character that I've had to do. Yeah, like a species of a floppy character. And that's been fun because when we're trying to, it's not that, so we have to keep their feet rooted, so of course we don't pick up their noise on the mic, [00:21:30] but they have to move with their body, but also stay on mic.

Talia: So there's a lot of like imagining your flowing as well as moving your arms, but trying not to make the noise. So that's been fun. And then, you know, I've had the opposite where actors have come in and they've been so nervous about [00:21:45] their character that they, and it's a human character and they've been really rigid.

Talia: And I've gone, okay, we've tried everything we can. I thought, you know what? And I get in the booth with them.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: And we do a shakedown exercise that we go through, and then we, they'll sit and talk to me [00:22:00] in character, and then we'll go onto script.

Matt: Right.

Talia: And then they find the body through that.

Matt: Yes. That…

Talia: …is a lot.

Matt: I, sorry. Just it sounds like a lot of fun. Much. I mean, is it a fun job?

Talia: Much. I love my job. I really do.

Matt: So, as challenging as it might be, are you able [00:22:15] to kind of give us a little overview of kind of what voice work within games is? Why it's important?

Talia: Yeah. I think, oh my goodness, it's grown so much in the last few years, especially with games that have become films or like [00:22:30] TV shows - The Last of Us being the first thing that comes to mind.

Talia: But essentially it's having these actors create this world in the booth over the course of months, weeks, and even though we focus on one scene, in a [00:22:45] video game. There's so many different types I know, but if we're talking about a heavily narrative video game, it would mean that not only do you have the normal gameplay of whatever it is, push the buttons, let's go.

Talia: You will also have the cinematic scenes, which are [00:23:00] essentially short film-like clips of maybe three to four. Within that video game, and that will explain like a whole character's backstory. It could be them walking down the street talking to people, or it could be aliens and how they were born, whatever the backstory is.[00:23:15]

Talia: And so within those scenes, you need to have these voice actors bringing these characters to life. So it's so important to have that direction, because when an actor comes in, they could be doing scene seven on their first day, and it's the director's job to remember that in scene [00:23:30] one they were crying, but the scene before they've been laughing.

Talia: So if we're going into scene seven from scene six, we still need to have that laughter. The actor's got so many things to think about that the director literally has to direct and guide and make sure that we are getting this performance.

Matt: Yeah. [00:23:45] You mentioned movement direction. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Talia: Yeah, so I'm also a performance director. So there's Pcap and Mocap.

Matt: Yes.

Talia: And motion capture - the best way to explain that is if you've seen Andy Serkis do Gollum,

Matt: Yes.

Talia: And he's in that [00:24:00] wonderful, what we call a morph suit, and he's got little dots all over his body.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Talia: Body specifically. And he's moving, and also the, you know, you do facial capture as well, which is the dots across the face, and he's moving. And Avatar uses this [00:24:15] beautifully for motion capture. Performance capture is the same thing, but with voice. Now the reason they're different and are sort of merging into each other is because, back then, capturing the voice was harder 'cause the technology wasn't there, so you [00:24:30] couldn't always capture the voice at the same time as the movement. He'd have to go off and record Gollum separately and then do the movement to Gollum - which is why he's so incredible - and then come back.

Talia: Planets of the Apes, same thing, come back and then do the body to the voice or vice versa. Performance capture is expanding in gaming because [00:24:45] you're able to get the same actor to do the body and the voice, whereas before you might have to have two separate actors that do that in gaming.

Matt: I see. Okay. So syncing those two things becomes quite challenging.

Talia: Yeah, yeah. Performance capture has its own challenges 'cause of course, [00:25:00] as that director, I'm listening as well as watching, as well as making sure, as well as the character. As well as what, like it's crazy wonderful. [00:25:15]

Matt: Do you play games?

Talia: I do. I am a nerd.

Matt: Great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is there, are there, are there characters in games that you particularly love? Is there one maybe that you've enjoyed as a player?

Talia: Gosh, there are so many. I love [00:25:30] narrative based games, so I play all games because I think, obviously being in this industry, I have to make sure that I am also playing.

Talia: And yeah, so I've been a judge for BAFTA games as well.

Matt: Yes.

Talia: For, for many, many years. And through them I do a [00:25:45] lot of work with, like working and playing the video games. And I'm a wuss, so I'm really bad at horror, but I do play horror games because I have to know what they're about, I can't be ignorant and I have directed horror games and it scared me a lot, but I make [00:26:00] sure I play all sorts of games and love all sorts of characters. But I think narrative, anything that's narrative driven gets me.

Talia: Because I love learning about the story, the cinematics, which is the small clip, which is three or four minutes in [00:26:15] between the gameplay, that show is just a film. Put down your controller and watch it. It's beautifully done. And just seeing how that's developed over the years makes me like narrative games more and more.

Talia: And I'm not very good at gaming, so it helps to have a little break in between [00:26:30] actually.

Matt: Yeah. So can we, BAFTA what? What in particular are you judging? Do you have a sort of section that you're looking at?

Talia: Um, there's so many sections that are judged and I think that's wonderful. It's a whole scope and they get people from all sorts of BAFTA backgrounds, if that [00:26:45] makes sense.

Talia: So like you will have someone in lighting judging narrative as well, potentially, because they try to section it to Okay. 

Matt: So they're sort creating a 360 view of something?

Talia: Right, exactly. So that it's as fair as it can be.

Matt: Yeah. What are you kind of looking [00:27:00] for in a good game?

Talia: It depends on the categories, but in the past I've been in the narrative category.

Matt: Right, okay.

Talia: Yeah, definitely.

Talia: And in the past, my specialist then is the story. I've been in other categories as well, where narrative or voice [00:27:15] is involved, but not the main part of that category. But they are very good with making sure that each category has people that are mainly specialists, but also can be slightly off, like slightly to the side of the specialty.

Matt: You've been in this [00:27:30] industry for a while now - 11 plus years. And how have games and gaming sort of changed in that time? Do you think people are playing games differently or different types of games are more popular than others than they were a few [00:27:45] years ago?

Talia: Yeah, I think it really expanded over lockdown.

Matt: Okay.

Talia: When people had more time to do gaming, I know that I became super heavy into my old school, like I love Mario. I know it's controversial. I get it. As a voice director, most people go, [00:28:00] what? There's no voices. I love a good Super Mario. Why Natalia? Well, let me tell you, I love it because anyone can play it.

Talia: And your grandma can play it. Your 2-year-old can button bash and kind of get there. Like for me, it feels like such a community game. [00:28:15] And it took off a lot during lockdown because more people wanted to get into gaming, and it's a very good one to start with as a foundation. But I think it has developed because when we've had more money in gaming in the past, we are now creating the cinematic [00:28:30] side.

Talia: So a lot of TV franchises have come out of gaming and vice versa, a lot of films, and I think people are sort of doing the back and forth between both because the gaming's become more cinematic.

Matt: What would you like to see in the industry [00:28:45] going forward and in these games?

Talia: I wanna see representation, I wanna see me, I wanna see you, I wanna see us more.

Talia: I mean, there are so many exciting games that have come out whilst I've been in this industry that [00:29:00] I've begun to see me in and begun to connect with on a level where, you know, black girls in gaming wasn't as widespread. And then South of Midnight came out, and I'm like one of many of course games that come out, but it's just the one that springs to mind. And just [00:29:15] being excited about seeing that representation and not necessarily having that scope before on that scale and as publicised.

Talia: So in gaming, I wanna see that. I worked on wonderful game called Valoant, where the lead guy, Phoenix, the lead character is a black South [00:29:30] Londoner. Wonderful. I'm a black South Londoner. That's really cool. But then also, what I would say behind the scenes, like my sort of roles, the producers, the directors, the I want to see range in that.

Talia: And it's not, like I said, it's all sorts of representation. I'm not just saying [00:29:45] just black, just this, just that. I want all of the communities to have a space and it's wonderful because I'm seeing it happen. I'm just impatient.

Matt: No, of course. I think that's, I mean, that's a really important message, but the speed of change feels like it could be quicker, couldn't it? [00:30:00]

Talia: Yeah. I definitely feel like it could be. I think another one for me is accessibility, I find this really important.

Matt: Yes. Yeah.

Talia: Really important. I work with a company called Blind Burners who are, it's a charity that I am a consultant and also a [00:30:15] guide for people who are partially sighted and visually impaired within the gaming community, and it's just getting out there and making sure there's space for those people as well. And just developing something as simple as having a different type of control so that when they hold it, there's [00:30:30] a feeling that there's more of a buzz, which that's been implemented into our controllers for most, most part, PlayStation and, and Sony and Xbox.

Talia: They're all trying to do that now. But just I want it faster 'cause I'm impatient and 'cause I'm excited about it and I'm excited that there's [00:30:45] money there now to do this.

Matt: Well that's wonderful to hear that you've seen some of that work as well. I was wondering then if we could mine your experience both as a voice actor and as a voice director for some hints or tips for young people that might be listening.

Talia: Yeah. Okay. So [00:31:00] as a voice actor, one thing I will say, because I think the gaming community but also audible books and everything is becoming so, so large and a lot of people feel like they can't break into it 'cause it's, it is a heavily saturated market, [00:31:15] especially with lockdown, like I said, and having people have their own like home studios to do these voices and books.

Talia: One thing I will say is it doesn't matter where you come from and it doesn't matter how much money you have. And I say that being someone from South [00:31:30] London that didn't grow up with bucket loads of money. And I say that because it's the most simple thing you can do is read out loud. And once you start to read out loud as a voice actor, you get your pace.

Talia: You listen to the way you speak, you listen to your musicality, and you [00:31:45] start to throw voices. And the best piece of advice for someone who doesn't matter if you've trained, when I'm casting or looking for actors, dependent on my brief. If they say they don't have to be trained, I don't care if you've trained or not.

Talia: I do care if you can read. You don't [00:32:00] have to be good at sight reading when it comes to dyslexia or anything else that you need help with, it will always, nine times out of 10, the studio will find a way that you will audition with help with that, but you do have to be able to be competent and read and express.

Talia: [00:32:15] So just start with kid books.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: Start with Spot the Dog. 

Matt: Yeah. One of the great, great characters. Spot the dog.

Talia: Spot the dog. Amazing. Whatever kid's book you have and throw those voices.

Matt: And maybe something that you kind of have an affection for and an infinity with.

Talia:  Yeah, something that [00:32:30] you love.

Talia: Read out loud. I understand, if you love Lord of the Rings, you want to tackle that. That is great, we love this for you. But start with something simple and basic and then build up and make sure you bite an apple in between so you don't get the sticky noise in your [00:32:45] mouth.

Matt: A lot of this does sound, have fun with it. Yeah, I guess be playful with it.

Talia: Play around. Yeah. Do you know what I did? I watched TV and picked out different voices, different characters. I've had people come to me and say, oh yeah, I listened to footballers in interviews and copy their accents.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: That's [00:33:00] brilliant for accent work. If you can find somebody that fits you or like your voice tone or like where you are from example, Liverpool, whatever, and you find a Liverpudlian accent and player mimic them, great.

Talia: Why not? And then read Spot the dog in a liver pod and the accent, why not? There we go. [00:33:15]

Matt: So if people are kind of thinking, right, I'd like to help other people to perform, do you think it's important as a voice director to have had experience on the other side of it and to have been an actor first?

Talia: You know what the best of voice directors that I've worked with, seen and been around [00:33:30] have had that.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: The same with the best film directors because the film director on set won't just sit there and guide an actor. They'll also think about the lighting, the whatever, the camera. Nine times out of 10, they've come from one of those different sectors to become a film [00:33:45] director and therefore…

Matt: So they've got that kind of authentic sort of experience.

Talia: Exactly. They've got the whole… they can see like the vision.

Matt: Mm.

Talia: And I think. What you want to do is make your vision as wide as possible. So for me, I feel very grateful that I came from the acting point of [00:34:00] view, because I've been a voice actor and I've done audio books, and I've done radio dramas, and I've done all of that.

Talia: So I know A, how you feel when you step in the booth, you are nervous, and B, how to calm you 'cause I know what I would've wanted. Just a cup of tea and a chat [00:34:15] and listening to music.

Matt: Yeah.

Talia: But then also craft wise, you understand. A different depth, a different level, and you also understand where your resonance sits and how that might be hard for someone else.

Talia: There's just a deeper level of understanding. So [00:34:30] my first advice if you wanna be a voice director, is to either do acting classes, practice yourself, pretend you're a voice actor, and practice everything we said with the voice actor. Spot the Dog. Read out loud, like hone in on your craft. Watch [00:34:45] TV, watch, film, play, or do whatever medium that you want to go into.

Matt: Really, really great. That's really helpful and fun. Like I think its fun. It does sound like a fun Jo. It sounds like you're, having a good time at work, which is great. It's just really what kind of people, [00:35:00] you know, want to do.

Talia: Yeah, I think, I think people worry that it's gonna be super tough because it sounds like a lot if you don't know it.

Matt: It does seem competitive, doesn't it? 

Talia: It's a very saturated market. It's competitive, but there'll always be a space for you in the way [00:35:15] that even if you don't necessarily become a voice actor from it, you'll become a voice director.

Talia: If you don't become a voice director, you'll become a performance director. You'll find something or someone you connect to if you are passionate enough about it. And so don't give up because I didn't.

Matt: Thank you, Talia. [00:35:30] That's a wonderful way to end. Thank you ever so much for your time today. It's been a lot of fun talking to you.

Matt: So yeah, we really appreciate it. 

Talia: Thank you. 

Matt: And I'm imagining a country of teenagers reading out loud to themselves in their bedrooms.

Talia: I love that idea. Yeah, I love that idea.

Matt: Thank you ever so much.

Talia: Thank [00:35:45] you.

Matt: Thanks again to Talia for her time today. I'm definitely gonna go home and practice my reading out loud. It was really brilliant to speak to her and understand a bit of the fun she has in her working day. If [00:36:00] you ever want to know more about Talia's work, we'll include links to her website and social media in the podcast episode description.

Matt: And as ever, really hope you're enjoying the podcast. So subscribe and share with someone if you haven't done so before. Remember to rate and review us wherever you get your podcast, as it [00:36:15] helps us to understand what you think of the show. Thanks for listening, and until next time, take care. Bye-bye.