Unlocking creative pathways in education with Paul Glennon

Paul Glennon is an artist, designer, and educator. He's taught art and design at every educational level, from primary school to higher education, and he is currently head of Outreach and Access at the University of the Arts London.

In this podcast episode, Paul reflects on his journey from growing up in Belfast to becoming a graphic designer, teacher and leader in outreach and access. He discusses the importance of inclusive teaching, creative confidence and giving young people meaningful opportunities to see themselves in creative futures.

Website: http://www.paulglennon.co.uk/about.html

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Transcript

Matt: Hello, and welcome back to the Teach Inspire Create podcast. I'm Matt Mosley, chief Examiner for Art and Design at UAL Awarding Body. In this podcast, I speak to a [00:00:15] fascinating range of people who work all across the creative arts about how they have made their way into their current roles, their impactful teaching experiences, and the people and things that inspire them.

Matt: Through these conversations, we hope to show you that there are endless ways to belong [00:00:30] in the creative world today. My guest is Paul Glennon, artist, designer, and educator. He's taught art and design at every educational level, from primary school to higher education and he is currently head of Outreach and Access [00:00:45] at the University of the Arts London.

Matt: In this episode, I'm gonna be talking to Paul about his journey from growing up in Belfast to becoming a graphic designer, educator, and an expert in access and outreach. And through some brilliant examples, we learn why that work is so [00:01:00] important. Thank you ever so much for joining us today on the Teach Inspire Create podcast.

Paul: It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me along.

Matt: We always start the podcast by asking our interviewee to go back in [00:01:15] time a bit and to think about if there is a specific moment where kind of creativity or being creative first entered your thoughts.

Paul: Wow. Wow. I'm a bit old now, so, but you're asking me to go back in time.

Paul: I'm, [00:01:30] I'm 52. I'm gonna be 53 this year. So I think that when I was a, a kid, I just always drew, I was always drawing and I think that drawing just became part of what I did on a daily basis, just doodling. But [00:01:45] also I, my brother, older brother, a big rock core collection vinyl. Class, you know? Yeah. He like lots of stuff like, you know, led Zeppelin and all that, but he had a lot of Iron Maiden as well, and I wasn't really into, I was into music, but not, maybe not as cool as he [00:02:00] was.

Paul: But I loved the album covers and I would draw the album covers, especially the on front of the Iron Maiden. Covers the, the monster and stuff like that, the mummies knife to draw them. And then I got interested in the relationship between image and type on that [00:02:15] and as a young kid. And so that was about when I was about 10.

Paul: But then at school I sort of started to have an interest in high drawing related to type and

Matt: yeah,

Paul: and, and then I discovered a sort of this idea about graphic [00:02:30] design and about. How you could create products and magazines and, and then, and then somebody designed the album covers. And this really excited me and that was a real start point for me in terms of that, that relationship or what I became was a graphic designer.

Paul: That's what my trade [00:02:45] was before I entered into education.

Matt: How did you kind of train for graphic design? What was your journey into that?

Paul: It was a pretty awful journey. I'm from Belfast. I was born there in the seventies and it was a kind of an unusual time there. I don't really remember much of primary school, to be honest with [00:03:00] you.

Paul: I definitely probably am aware now that I'm probably dyslexic and there was no sort of diagnosis for that. So primary school is. I don't really remember and I failed my m plus or it failed me as I like to say. I went into secondary modern in in, in Belfast and [00:03:15] an all boys school and I absolutely hated it.

Paul: I really, really hated it. And I didn't do that well in art and design. 'cause what they do is set up things in a room like brushes and buckets and then say, draw that. And that was a terrible experience for that very old school.

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: Draw [00:03:30] still life And it, and I

Matt: suppose that felt very different from. The artistic things that you were interested in outside where it was.

Matt: You could see the relationship between the visual and the music and the thing, and then, so this approach at school felt [00:03:45] disconnected from that.

Paul: Totally. And also, if you had a drawn of an Iron Maiden album cover, you know, the teacher would say, that's not art. So that's you, you're just copying something else.

Paul: And, and I, you know, I've, I've thought about that over the years and I didn't really like [00:04:00] that. I didn't so do so well in GCSE. Art and Design, ironically, and went to a further education college in Belfast and there I did what was called then a national diploma. Yeah. Which has the extended diploma now.

Paul: And I did an A level art [00:04:15] alongside it and got a BMA level art, and I got. Distinction, distinction, whatever, in the extended diploma. And that was the best two years of my life. Right. 'cause I, I got out of the school and, and I did an art and design.

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: Extended diploma. And I just loved it. 'cause I was [00:04:30] doing all sorts of things and I was watching other people doing work and I just loved it so much.

Paul: It meant so much to me. I get into Austria University and they call it the art college. And I did a visual communication degree and within that you could [00:04:45] specialize in graphic design. And I was very lucky to right away when I graduated, to get a job right away in an, in an advertising and design agency in Belfast, where I worked for three years and eventually did a bit of studio managing.

Matt: Yeah. [00:05:00] What was kind of different about the art college experience to the school?

Paul: I felt that the, there were certain attributes that some of the art and design teachers in the key stage, 3G CSE level, which we know it now, they wanted certain things [00:05:15] you had to be good at in an art and design, unless you were really good drawing or painting that the art teacher.

Paul: We'd primarily just leave you. B, wouldn't bother with you. And I thought that quite sad really. And I didn't really get enough things put in front of me in [00:05:30] that environment that were around graphic design or around image and text. I didn't learn anything about that until I went to university or in my extended diploma in that environment, there was just so much going on.

Paul: You know, art and design is a lot. More than [00:05:45] just art and design. There's textiles now. I did textiles. I learned how to use a sewing machine, you know, and that was, I loved that. I really, really liked that. And also product design, other things. So that environment is really brilliant. One last thing about the University of Ster was that [00:06:00] Belfast, during the Troubles there was, there was a divide.

Paul: In the art and art college setting, that divide didn't seem to be there,

Matt: right?

Paul: There was a real harmonious time in there, and creatives seemed to be just not, not above it, they just sort of like ignored, [00:06:15] you know? And that felt like a safe environment. And I also met some international students while I was there as well.

Paul: So that was a really beautiful time for me. And some of my best friends are from that era and still are not to this day.

Matt: Do you think that was kind of one of the first times that you [00:06:30] maybe saw the power of creativity in the arts to kind of push through these barriers?

Paul: We got some really good guest speakers who we come over and people who are, were alumni and there was a guy called Billy Ney and he was in, he worked for Jay Walter Thompson's big [00:06:45] advertising man.

Paul: And Billy, when he used to do smarties adverts, stuff like that. He was a really cool guy. I really enjoyed that, that environment and having those guest speakers come in to the university give you an idea of what the future could be like. You could aim towards some of the things they were doing. So my experience with [00:07:00] him was really, really, and other guest speakers was really, really interesting,

Matt: I suppose as well, through all those developmental years, you were sort of seeing real time the power of imagery.

Matt: Text and imagery to, you know, protest, but for [00:07:15] good and for bad. The power that communicating in that way could have

Paul: my art and design education school didn't gimme that much understanding of the history of art and design, but that experience did teach me that there's politics within that as well, but [00:07:30] good politics, which can help create change of some sort as well.

Paul: So that was very important to me

Matt: and it's sort of powerful reoccurring themes around community and bringing people together. To do something happening isn't there in all these

Paul: different, yeah, I mean, part of growing up [00:07:45] there, luckily we did get through it and there was a sort of resolution with the dining street declaration and other great people who contributed to bring peace there.

Paul: But I think that part of the creative spirit of. Belfast and it's still there. I go home now [00:08:00] and see my parents, take my kids home, and I think it's a great place. There is that sense of community and different communities coming in to Northern Ireland and con contributing to the creative communities within there.

Paul: It's very important. I see that in London as [00:08:15] well. And in other cities that I've worked in, in the uk, like in Birmingham or Cardiff, those creative communities are just so important to the lifeline.

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: And the culture of what we see and, and think and read every day.

Matt: So as a sort of youngster, did you [00:08:30] have a lot of access to the arts?

Matt: Was it easy to visit galleries or go to gigs, concerts, that kind of thing?

Paul: Certainly concerts and stuff like that. Lots of people wanted to come and perform there, but galleries less so, but more. [00:08:45] When I started my extended diploma and then I went to university, there was, we were encouraged more to go and see different things.

Paul: I was more interested in the design side of things. I was into creative review and I magazine and going to talks, you know, and [00:09:00] about graphic design. I was very interested in note, 'cause the Bauhaus interested me in relation to the relationship between art and design and how both can help each other.

Paul: Yeah. There's freedom within art and then there's rules and constraints to some degree in [00:09:15] design, which, you know, where history has tried to sort of change that and both of 'em work very well together. But I felt that there were good galleries to go to in Belfast. But we went to Dublin to see different exhibitions and we were taken to London.

Paul: [00:09:30] Glasgow, one of my tutors, John McMillan, he was brilliant. He would get us in to see big agencies like J Walter Thompson or some of the big agencies and just get talks with some of those individuals. And so for me it was about that access to that design world, which is very [00:09:45] important. I'm exciting to see how agencies work.

Matt: So were you accessing or [00:10:00] using any of your. Own experiences, good and bad in education to inform how you approach to your teaching.

Paul: I went and did A-P-G-C-E in Wales, in Cardiff?

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: Tough. Tough. It's an

Matt: eye opener, isn't

Paul: it? But my plan was to do the PGC [00:10:15] and then go straight into teach graphic design.

Paul: Yeah. Where I was like, oh, I've gotta actually go and teach in schools. Well one thing they did in the PGC course, there's about 50 students on it, so a big placement song. 'cause Carter's got some big schools. One of the schools down there has got like 3000 kids in it. But they did an artist in residence in a [00:10:30] primary school to start you off.

Paul: 'cause I was a secondary school, PGC, and I was like, I, why do I have to be an artist in residence? Can I be a designer in residence? So I decided that I wanted to set up a little mini agency in the primary school and they [00:10:45] allowed me to tap into. I guess my experiences were, I didn't feel that the art and design side of art and design Okay.

Paul: Given off focus within that. Yeah. So that was one thing I tried and that, that worked quite well. The kids responded really well to it and [00:11:00] it was a really nice experience as, as a starting point for my PGCA.

Matt: Yeah. Were you conscious of sort of how much accessibility, how in touch these kids were with creative arts and whether or not they were having enough?

Matt: Access to

Paul: it. It [00:11:15] certainly felt like the schools that I did my PGC in were, in some respects, especially up in the valleys, were very under resourced when it came to art design, and that was a shame. I didn't really come across the notion of [00:11:30] disadvantage or access issues until I did three years teaching after that in, uh, secondary schools.

Paul: Art and design. And then I got a job at Redding College. So I had this really great experience where when I'm in there as a lecturer in graphic design, I got this job as a lecture in graphic [00:11:45] design. That's exactly what I wanted. And this is like I, my life's over and I've solved it. Right. You know, I wanted to be a lecturer in graphic design.

Paul: Have a practice, small practice on the side. That would be me. Reading was a really good college. I really enjoyed it and I enjoyed that [00:12:00] relationship with the, it was a higher education and further education working in real synergy together. And I could see there were students who were coming from all backgrounds, different ethnicities, different.

Paul: Working class, middle class, and then you [00:12:15] realize that this college was very good at inclusivity and that felt very important to me. And also where I really benefited from other people who've been working there for a long time. I have been taught. In a pg, a very good PGCE [00:12:30] course and had done teaching in schools where differentiation was very important, the need to differentiate for learners.

Paul: So when I went in to teach, sometimes I would find, and back then that some lectures would teach to a one [00:12:45] audience, whereas, you know, in schools and in colleges and under the diplomas and which you, the warning body would, would, would, would support differentiations and expectation. I'm not too sure how that works in higher education off-state.

Paul: Expect that of [00:13:00] teachers who expects that of lectures in higher education. And I use that to my benefit to be able to try to communicate to all the learners no matter what their background was. And I, I'm still working to this day of how you execute that best because [00:13:15] I think that there's many different ways to do that, but I'm very.

Paul: I think it's very important when you have a bunch of students in a room that you really include all of them. They might be at different levels. It's trying to sort of tell everybody that they're at that level and try to say that that, that's a [00:13:30] challenge for me when I walk into the room, and I want you all to work on that ladder that you're on and not get frustrated.

Paul: If you see other people way ahead of you. Try to look at where you are in the ladder and keep going to the next one rather than trying to just jump up to the top. And if you're at the top. [00:13:45] What can you do to perfect your skills even more? What can you do to get involved in the teaching and being part of that community of learning?

Matt: Yeah,

Paul: so it's a very, it's a very complex process differentiation, and it works differently and across lots of subjects like maths, for example, [00:14:00] or if you're studying sociology at university. I think it, there's different ways to look at this.

Matt: So within this idea of. The students as individuals in differentiation.

Matt: Is there an example that you can think of where that's coming to play positively?

Paul: One of the brilliant [00:14:15] times I had was we used to do grip interviewing and one, one of my colleagues, he was brilliant. He had a real knack of. Bringing students on board, but look at the portfolios together. And one of the portfolios, you could tell the student maybe just hadn't had as much support.

Paul: The portfolio wasn't [00:14:30] as strong as some as the others. But what he did was he noticed in his bag that he had sketchbooks and he said, can we have a look at some of those books? He went, oh, they're not part of my portfolio. He went, but what are they? Is there any drawings stuff? He went, oh, it's all my personal stuff.

Paul: Can we have a look at it? And the student pulled it out [00:14:45] and within that was some amazing. Tags, right? Yeah, yeah. Other illustrations, things like that, which were fascinating and a lot stronger than what was in the portfolio. And my colleague said, we're gonna give him a place.

Matt: Yeah, yeah,

Paul: yeah. 'cause it's, [00:15:00] that's about digging deep.

Paul: It's

Matt: recognizing that there's maybe more. Under the surface

Paul: it's looking, not at the Polish finished piece, but looking at the process and the potential.

Matt: Yes,

Paul: which is really, really important. And that's an example. Some students would be really into building [00:15:15] that sketchbook and making it beautiful and all that.

Paul: I was very interested in the process and what they're learning along journey. And how they would articulate and search for ideas, the generation of ideas being very important.

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: And not just getting the student to jump to the final [00:15:30] idea, but to try to spend time exploring those, that ideation in the journey.

Paul: Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Matt: Were giving themselves opportunities to make mistakes. Yeah. And for things to go wrong. You mentioned that you were. Onto the first year of the course [00:15:45] is, well, you mentioned the students needed more support at that stage and was that a hangover from their sort of school experience?

Paul: Yeah, definitely. I think that apart from different people's, different backgrounds, you're gonna have students who've done all three A levels for A levels. Uh, you're gonna [00:16:00] have students who've done extended diploma. You can have students who've done a levels, then a foundation, and there, so their learning approach is gonna be all different.

Paul: So the whole group's gonna be different. And interestingly around that time, I'd started to become co course director of the program and the [00:16:15] NSS National Student Survey kicked in. I didn't really know much about it, but you know, we were told we had to do wellness on this. It's not common parlor in, in which universities to measure their, the success of a program by the student satisfaction.

Paul: But at that point, in that period, [00:16:30] we scored something like 98%, which I didn't think any of at the time. Part of it I thought was when I assessed it was, it's not so much the final year of the program. It's the first year.

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: And if you can really embed the students, really, [00:16:45] I would say front load the teaching in the first three to four months right up until after the winter period into January, February.

Paul: And then tell the students you're gonna be stepping back a bit to give them a bit more freedom. So it's a bit of handholding even for the more the students here are up to [00:17:00] speed, but it's trying to get all them at at a certain level. If you can do that in that first year, you'll have them the whole way through.

Paul: Right. And they'll have the confidence and they'll feel part of the program and you can spend more time doing team building. The group and really [00:17:15] creating that esprit of core and, and I felt that's one of the reasons why the NSS was good, but also because my colleagues in the final year were very, very good as well.

Paul: And that stood with me as then as I became a course director, I became a director of study, and then from that [00:17:30] I get. I went, moved up to Birmingham and became an associate dean on student experience because I was able to apply some of that learning across a range of courses to enhance that student experience.

Paul: And part of that really, I think is the first year and just what you said is about that [00:17:45] transition period. 'cause it is a difficult period about if we had. If it was, if we had more, I've had more power. I would say the summer should be really, really important. There should be something about bridging for students to meet second year students, and that's something [00:18:00] we're looking at now, but I, I think that's really, really important to get the students on board.

Matt: And so at [00:18:15] which point in your kind of career journey then do you start to think about students or people not necessarily coming to the university, but thinking about going out into. Communities to work with people.

Paul: I, [00:18:30] Birmingham City University, there was an access agreement, right? And I got involved as part of being part of the faculty with the idea of writing that and how you would include different communities and collectively working with schools and colleges in Birmingham.

Paul: I started to see the importance of trying to [00:18:45] reach out to different communities outside of Birmingham and trying to make sure that. You had those connections with those schools and colleges. Mm. But I, I got interested about the journey of the student three and trying to think about how the curriculum is open for those different [00:19:00] students from different walks of life.

Paul: I started to read a little bit more around offer the office referral access At that point is when. I got my job here at University of the Arts London.

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: As Associate Dean of Outreach, [00:19:15] because I had experience with that and enhancing the student experience. Yeah, and that was 10 years ago. When I came here, what I wanted to see happen was, it's not just about access, getting into university.

Paul: But it's about making sure when you're on course [00:19:30] that you progress through the program and exit into a meaningful employment. Yeah. So I think that that development is really, really good.

Matt: And with those people that you work with out there, the, the people that the outreach programs connect with, [00:19:45] what are the contributing barriers?

Matt: Do you think to them thinking about higher education or creative education?

Paul: Well, I think if you're talking about right now, yeah, I think that obviously the fee system in the UK, in England has [00:20:00] changed quite dramatically. I think with that, there's a fear of debt that comes with that. Mm-hmm. And so that's number one is about, is this going to yield a return on investment for me?

Paul: Could I, should I just be out, go out and start working or do an apprenticeship? So there's a [00:20:15] financial. Concern also, when you have universities that have come with a cache of high prestige to them because of the alumni to come through them. Some students feel like, well, I, I don't think I can get in there.

Matt: Right?

Paul: And so part of it's about their [00:20:30] confidence and part of it also is about maybe some students, if they're first in their family, they go to university, no one's presented them with things or put things in front of them.

Matt: They haven't got direct role models or

Paul: Definitely, and also access to not, I wouldn't say it's [00:20:45] just museums and galleries, because that's a bit of a trope and it is important to go to see those.

Paul: But it's about other engagements. It's about access to people who are working in graphic design, how they develop sketchbooks, people who work in illustration, animation, [00:21:00] architecture. If they don't get experience of that, then they won't have the idea in their head. Mm. So I think that it's very important.

Paul: Earlier on to try to plant that, especially if you're first in your family to go to university where you don't have anybody and that's not 'cause your parents are neglecting [00:21:15] the kids or not at all. It's 'cause they don't have that experience.

Matt: Yeah. It's always a leap, isn't it, to sort of assume that. A parent can just cover everything, you know when they Yeah, they haven't had those experiences themselves.

Paul: Yeah, definitely. And that can work for [00:21:30] all subjects. 'cause some parents may feel that they are, struggle with certain subjects. Yeah. Not to start and design. So it is a challenge for parents and taking a primary school at key stage two as well. Primary school teachers are sort of meant to be [00:21:45] polymaths and know everything.

Paul: And they may, I dare say that they may have a really strong knowledge of art and design, but would they understand how our product design might work or how Sure, yeah. How architecture might evolve. And so sometimes it's very important to think about how we [00:22:00] can place things and support teachers.

Matt: Yeah.

Paul: At that level and at key stage three as well.

Paul: 'cause you know, key stage three, it's very, very important to note that art and design teachers only get one hour awake with some of their groups and for them to. Be able to put in every aspect of art and design in [00:22:15] there is difficult. So there are some challenges there for teachers as well as for parents.

Paul: So that's how we can, you know, within that, within the range of art and design, creative subjects help put things in front of of Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So they can go, oh yeah, I [00:22:30] didn't know we could do that. You know?

Matt: With that in mind, what is the intention and purpose of outreach? What are you trying to do?

Paul: So at University of the Arts London, the purpose of the art, which program, which is called Insights, is there's two stages.

Paul: Two it, there's a pre 16 [00:22:45] and a post 16, and the post 16 program's got three stages, which works along the first two years before you apply, it's to try to create a stepping stone to help students. Do. I would say three things. One, to help them get [00:23:00] across the threshold into these environments. It's a scary thing, so we're just try to, we went to schools and colleges and we talk about this.

Paul: Fine, you can come in here and we're gonna meet with other students and encourage them to get into the building. And secondly to the explore what's on [00:23:15] offer to understand the range of subjects within our own design. And to give them a taste of some of those subjects, say at year 12 or first year of their diploma.

Paul: Something which doesn't repeat what they're doing in school, but maybe gives them access [00:23:30] to good resources, helps them meet some of the tutors. Technicians and the students, importantly here on the programs, who've come through our program insights and then to specialize [00:23:45] and say, I'm gonna do this, and then we work with them to help them build that portfolio.

Paul: Again, not duplicate what they're doing in their school or college, but to add value via them. The threshold. So we've got a spring school around Easter, a summer [00:24:00] school, which is a week long, and then we have a AU winter program, which runs once a week for around 12 weeks. Alongside, you cast the application process for the university, and that is.

Paul: By building confidence, by building the portfolio. [00:24:15] And then we don't guarantee a place at university UAL, but we guarantee that we'll support them and we'll help them to apply. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that, that's the aim. And especially if the students have got certain characteristics, so we have eligibility criteria.[00:24:30]

Paul: Not all it's perfect. And it could be better I think, in terms of, for example, high school income rather than, versus free school meals. That would be much better to have that, but not all kids will know what that is. But we use our eligibility criteria to target maybe schools and [00:24:45] colleges to have high proportion of students who are economically disadvantaged or who are from underrepresented groups within UAL and in higher education in general.

Paul: And we use data sets like from the office for students to help us determine that. But the clues in the word outreach, a [00:25:00] lot of our work is about going out in the schools and colleges in London. Right.

Matt: Meeting

Paul: where they're at and, and there are not just assuming at all, just flock us. We need to go out.

Paul: And so the team that I have, do a fantastic job of going out and meeting teachers and you're supporting the kids in the area and [00:25:15] also meet the students themselves.

Matt: And why is it important for somewhere like University out London to have students who come from. Those beginnings learning in their institutions.

Paul: I think that my view on society is that [00:25:30] it's an uneven playing field and when we, when people start their education, they have all sorts of disadvantage and they can have multiple levels of disadvantage, and I'm very interested in trying to. Support students with the most level of disadvantage, especially just [00:25:45] before or when they're on course and when they're in the university.

Paul: But I think there's lots of research out there to say that the, like a diverse workforce will be a better workforce. And there's lots of research from Stanford University and other places to say that, and that's not to start and [00:26:00] design, but in all areas of work. And I think it's the same in education, same in higher education, that if you have a cohort of students that are.

Paul: Diverse there, and especially in creativity and art and design. Just talking about my background in Belfast and going into [00:26:15] diverse community at University of Ulster, I think it just helps the students to gain a rich global outlook rather than a particular sort of myopic view of the world. And I think it helps their creativity.

Paul: So I think it's especially [00:26:30] important for art and design and other creative subjects.

Matt: Yeah, and I guess in a way. Your brother and Iron Maiden were your outreach, but you having access to his records and his record sleeves

Paul: Yeah.

Matt: Was enough to kind of [00:26:45] set you on a journey. And I suppose, is there something in what you are trying to do to just provide that kernel, that seed, that starting point for.

Matt: To some people.

Paul: It's a lovely way, the way you've put that because I used to sneak up into his room and he wasn't there and open up the album [00:27:00] covers and look at the inside and all the text and all that, and he, he'd be raging, you know, my fingerprint was on his record player. But yeah, artifacts and the idea of like.

Paul: Putting things in people's hands. There's these two researchers called Marcus Nuria, [00:27:15] two women in the 1970s. I think they talked about future self and how you can see your future self, I think is really in having objects put in front of you. Right. And I think that, so it's also about role models you mentioned that's very important and people talking [00:27:30] about their experiences.

Paul: And here in the, in these sectors are emerging into these sectors, but it's also about having. A product put in front of you or a garment, a particular item, a pen, or, you know, everything we've got in front of us right [00:27:45] now, what we're wearing, the, you know, this mic that I'm speaking into our clothes, they're all designed by someone, which is an incredible thing when you think about it.

Paul: Every. Thing in this room to our trainers to, yeah, our notepads and our pens are all designed by someone, [00:28:00] and I think that when you help students to understand that, I mean, you put inspirational things in front of them and help them deconstruct that as a start point, then you open up opportunities for them.

Paul: One experience I had. I remember very early on as a kid [00:28:15] being brought into this car factory. I wrote about it in the NSAD, the National Society for Education Art Design, their ad magazine. I went to this car factory and we walked in and I thought I was seeing a spaceship 'cause it had wings. But [00:28:30] what it was is the DeLorean car.

Paul: Wow.

Matt: Right.

Paul: And um, it was built in outside Belfast, in Lisburn. And we went there and we were kids and we saw them and you know, but that was is before back to the future, you know? Yeah,

Matt: yeah.

Paul: And we got to see the drawings of the car [00:28:45] and I then I was, there was something in that. Kernel is that you said there about seeing a relationship between a drawing.

Paul: It was an orthographic projection, you know, a 3D drawing of the front or plan view and side view of the car. And then we saw it. [00:29:00] So we saw the drawing first and then we're taken out to see it. Yeah. And I was just like. What, and there was something in that ker, that moment, and that was an experience. It wasn't an outreach experience, it was just a visit.

Paul: As I thought, this

Matt: idea of an idea on paper becoming a physical,

Paul: it just, it [00:29:15] changed things for me. 'cause I, I didn't think that drawings could do that. Yeah. You know, as a kid I was quite young and I was like, wow, this is so cool.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to ask. Do you have any examples [00:29:30] or of like a student's journey that you could share with us where Outreach has met them, where they're at, and then they've come through?

Matt: The university,

Paul: there's so many. Uars, got a great long history of doing access work and I've been here 10 years, but [00:29:45] before that, the team of people I work with now, were doing it with the Dean of Students here in Mark Crawley. I think as of last year we progressed about 350, which is a lot of students Mm, come through our insights program.

Paul: But we do see students who not only come through the [00:30:00] program but go into different and do into UAL and go into different courses in UAL. Then work for us as outreach ambassadors,

Matt: right?

Paul: We've got so many, we've got nearly a hundred students who are working for us. We pay them, and it's sort of an [00:30:15] ecosystem.

Paul: So many of them have actually gone on to become early career academics, right? Or actually some of 'em been teaching in UAL and that goes back even before the time we created insights or have gone out in the industry or working for different [00:30:30] companies like Burberry and things like that. And you're still coming back and working with.

Paul: Our internal colleagues here, we've got a operation called Creative Shift that they're like the internal outreach. They help students make connection with industry if they're from disadvantaged backgrounds. That [00:30:45] type of ecosystem's really, really important because if you see students helping other students, that can be a gateway or an open opportunity for them to become a lecturer or a teacher themselves.

Paul: And that's happened many times.

Matt: And that sort of legacy is just [00:31:00] proof, isn't it, of the value. And the importance of the outreach work, isn't it that Yeah. Proves that outreach is necessary and that it does the thing that it's designed to do.

Paul: Yeah, I mean, the key thing is the whole student journey. [00:31:15] I think it's really, really important.

Paul: 'cause my job is to get students to the party almost, and my team's job. But I'm very interested in how they do on course. And we're very interested in how the students do when they exit the university, what their opportunities are. We were trying to build an [00:31:30] alumni base from that and we're really interested to see students coming back and sharing their stories.

Paul: 'cause it's important to hear that and recognize that students will have diverse, amazing portfolio careers. We're really interested in the learning. If a [00:31:45] student is an outreach ambassador. On our and has come through insights. What's the impact on doing that? Paid work on their studies, and we're doing some early research on that, my colleagues who were LCC to see if [00:32:00] the students' confidence is better and some of the qualitative information we're getting.

Paul: The students say they feel confident about talking and presenting. Sure. 'cause they're supporting students and that improves their confidence. We're interested if there's a correlation between being an outreach ambassador and [00:32:15] actually their end grade. And the quality of their work. And I think that there is, and it's that closing the loop.

Paul: It's an ecosystem where the students come through the program and then end up working for us. Not all of 'em wanna do that, of course, but we really like to see good high proportion of students, [00:32:30] and that does help them if they're from socioeconomic backgrounds where money hasn't been always easy to come by.

Matt: Mm. So just to end today, do you have a creative provocation that you'd like to set for our listeners?

Paul: Well, I'm sure a lot of [00:32:45] art and design teachers will have thought of this and are all, and I have the utmost respect for teachers in schools. But I'm interested in two things, I guess, how to bring young.

Paul: Pupils creative interests into the [00:33:00] curriculum. Especially if it's not just art and design. It's thinking about how we can link what the pupils are doing outside of school, how there's opportunities for them to explore that within the curriculum. And I, I appreciate that's really difficult, especially for key [00:33:15] stage three 'cause you only have one hour a week.

Paul: But where are the spaces for students to talk about the creative things that they're doing? And this needs to be in a relaxed environment, maybe outside of the curriculum, like clubs and things like that, where the [00:33:30] students can just explore the curriculum, but talk about the things they're doing, and the teachers have an opportunity to talk to 'em about how they can weed that in to potential create a futures.

Paul: And that's where I see mentioned the outreach ambassadors that maybe we've [00:33:45] got 21,000 students. I think it's more than that. Now at UAL. I'm interested in how our own students can be part of that conversation and trying to utilize undergraduate students' expertise in their specialist areas to talk about, to link that with young people [00:34:00] and at either case, history.

Paul: Or key stage two prior to the GCSE point. The provocation there is about how do we ensure that, that their creative interests come into the classroom. And finally, how does art [00:34:15] and design create equal space for those students?

Matt: Hmm.

Paul: Ideas to flourish in both those quarters? Because I think there's slight tensions between subjects like design technology and Sure.

Paul: Yeah. How that word operates within that. How creativity works in [00:34:30] drama, for example, or music. But I'm interested in how and try to the subject being inclusive for students who maybe have a leaning towards design as I did when I was a kid.

Matt: That's brilliant. Thanks Paul. Because I think it's pretty well documented that design [00:34:45] deserves more space in the curriculum than it's getting at the moment.

Matt: For sure. So a very interesting provocation. Thank you. Thank you ever so much, Paul, for today. Unbelievably interesting. Just so much important work happening all over the place. Thank you.

Paul: You're welcome. [00:35:00]

Matt: Thanks again to Paul for his time today. If you want to know more about Paul's personal work and his work with the university, we will include links to his website and other useful resources in the podcast episode description.

Matt: Please rate and review us wherever you get [00:35:15] your podcasts. Thanks for listening. Until next time, bye-bye.