Teach Inspire Create

Emotional storytelling and visualising the ephemeral, with illustrator Annabel Dover

• Annabel Dover • Season 1 • Episode 8

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To access the available transcript please use the following link: https://bit.ly/3JjfxF6

Artist and writer, Annabel Dover, favours the representation of the ephemeral, she is interested in unveiling the hidden stories and emotions of the objects around us, engaging the viewer in untold tales of wonder.

 Annabel uses a variety of mediums, including painting, photography, video, cyanotype, and drawing. Her work is part distillation, part peripatetic ramble through her influences which range from archaeological illustration, archaic scientific techniques and the enthusiasms of a Victorian lady to the theories of Freud and anthropological research.

We talk to Annabel about the nuances of having a multifaceted career, how to creatively compromise with clients without compromising your creative identity, and how to continually find new creative ideas.

 

Annabel’s website: https://www.annabeldover.uk/ 

Discover more about UAL Awarding Body qualifications.

Matt Moseley:

Hello, and welcome to the Teach, Inspire, Create Podcast. I'm your host, Matt Moseley, chief examiner for art and design at the UAL Awarding Body. In this series, I'll be talking to artists and creative industry leaders under the lenses of three main themes: teaching, inspiring and creating.

Matt Moseley:

Today my guest is Annabel Dover. Annabel is an artist and writer who uses a variety of mediums, including painting, photography, video, cyanotype, and drawing. Favouring the representation of the ephemeral, she's interested in unveiling the hidden stories and emotions of the objects around us, engaging the viewer in untold tales of wonder. Her work is part distillation, part peripatetic ramble through her influences, which range from archeological illustration, archaic scientific techniques, and the enthusiasms of a Victorian lady, to the theories of Freud and anthropological research.

Matt Moseley:

Today, I'm excited to be talking to Annabel about the nuances of having a multifaceted career, how to creatively compromise with clients without compromising your own creative identity, and how to continually find new creative ideas. Here we go.

Matt Moseley:

There is a transcript available for this episode. Please click the link in the episode description so you can read as you listen.

Speaker 2:

Teach.

Speaker 6:

Teach.

Speaker 7:

Teach.

Speaker 8:

Teach.

Speaker 7:

Teach.

Speaker 10:

Teach.

Matt Moseley:

Hi Annabel, how you doing?

Annabel Dover:

I'm good. Thank you, Matt. How are you?

Matt Moseley:

I'm very well. Thank you.

Annabel Dover:

Good.

Matt Moseley:

Thanks very much for joining us today. It's really brilliant to have you on the Teach, Inspire, Create Podcast.

Annabel Dover:

Thank you. A pleasure.

Matt Moseley:

We're super excited about talking to you about your practice and all things creative, if we may. So we've been asking our inspirational guest to tell us a little bit about an inspirational teacher or an education experience that's kind of set you on your way a little bit.

Annabel Dover:

Can I talk about a few different weird ones?

Matt Moseley:

Yes, please. Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

I mean, good and bad ones. Well, Joanna Greenhill at Saint Martins, obviously UAL, she was amazing. She was sort of like an amazing intuitive psychiatrist, and she just looked at slides on my work. It was just slides, so a long time ago. And said, "Oh, you're just interested in the trace of things? Things that have gone but still left a mark of things?" And it's just, yeah, that was just in an interview. I've done a year at Saint Martins doing illustration, and I hadn't found it very fulfilling. I'd wanted to be an illustrator. And then I just felt ... I don't know, the projects, I felt, didn't really kind of match what I was interested in. There were lots of sort of business kind of things. We had lots of really great live projects, but I didn't feel kind of my work fitted. It's probably quite different now. But yeah, so she was just amazing.

Matt Moseley:

And that line that she said about things remaining.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

That still informs your work now?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, I think definitely. I think that was just really very clever woman, and was very perceptive and could really quickly gauge what somebody's thing was.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. Give you a strong insight.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. And I think for me, when I try and teach, that's something I try and be like, is try and not exactly be a psychiatrist, but really listen to what they're trying to communicate. Or the essence of what they're trying to communicate. Even if at the moment they're not doing that.

Matt Moseley:

So when you're teaching, do you then kind of try and think like the student's thinking?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Do you try to put yourself in their head?

Annabel Dover:

I think so. I think I try and do that with everyone every day.

Matt Moseley:

Right. Okay.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I think I feel like I haven't really ... I've got quite an amorphous personality and I don't particularly have much character of my own, or personality. But that I just kind of find people really fascinating and kind of interesting. And I can remember absolutely loads about somebody, as you know, because we know each other.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

So if somebody's telling me a story about themselves then I'll always sort of remember that. Obviously that's very important, the stories people tell about themselves.

Matt Moseley:

Does information about other people almost interest you more than information about yourself?

Annabel Dover:

Definitely. Definitely. When I did the MA at Saint Martins, to support myself at university I did a job where I did house clearances for an antiques dealer. This reet terrifying Geordie bastard. Sorry. And my job, he just went, "I don't want none of your funny business. Just do what you like. Don't care." So I just took in layers of bin bags, and it just felt really heartbreaking for me that all these people's incredibly personal stuff, all these photos that had obviously been deemed to be really important at the time, of babies and..

Matt Moseley:

Just become castoffs.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, were just going to go in the bin, and that was my job. And I just couldn't bear to do that. So it was from that I sort of did a kind of cubicle that was sort of roughly kind of Vitruvian. So like kind of human height and shape. So it was about six foot high. And well, quite a small human. You'd probably of not got in it. And about that sort of wide, so human width wide. And you went in and it was self lit. And then it had a blackout curtain and parachute silk, the light sort of diffused it. So it's kind of a bit like this. So a space where I wanted people to kind of recall things. And then I painted all these things that I'd saved. And then people would come in one by one. It went on a sort of touring show. It started at Letharby and then the Tate had it.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. So the idea of people looking at other people's objects to then trigger an individualised response in them about things that have sentimentality or significance in their life. Is that right?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I mean, I hadn't really come to that full conclusion, but you're right. That is what it turned out to be. For me, it was just things I felt were unbelievably poignant and I couldn't get rid of them until I felt I sort of commemorated them in some way. So I set myself up to do a painting a day for a year. And then people would go in and come out and tell me all kinds of stuff they never would've done if I'd have asked them directly, I think. But that's what I found really interesting. If you talk about someone's jewellery or something, they end up telling you about stuff.

Matt Moseley:

Well, I've I've often looked at your work, your fine art work, if I can call it that.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of how I differentiate.

Matt Moseley:

... in that space, which is about recording objects with an emotional or historical or personal investment in them. And they do trigger you to then go..

Annabel Dover:

Oh that's nice.

Matt Moseley:

..I've looked at your stuff and then gone and ... my grandfather gave me a beautiful set of his cigarette cards that he collected as he was a child. So yeah. So I can see your work does definitely perform that function in terms of getting people to reconnect. I've got kind of two questions I wanted to follow on from that.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, go for it.

Matt Moseley:

So the first one is I was really interested in what you were saying about thinking like someone else, and about how that can be useful. And then the other question I want is that you mentioned that there are some like maybe a negative educational experience. Because we've not had anybody talk about..

Annabel Dover:

Oh yeah.

Matt Moseley:

... the opposite. We've had lots of kind of really great, exciting, inspirational teachers and experiences, but it'd be really interesting to hear about how, when education kind of goes wrong, it can inspire you to do something good.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or also maybe you can kind of crush it down and then come back to it later as well. I don't know.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. Yeah. True. So if we start with thinking about..

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

... like as someone else. So you mentioned obviously that it's useful when you're teaching to put yourself in the mind of your student, and that helps you to think in a different way. Is that something that you do.

Annabel Dover:

I think it's something I've done since very young. I grew up in a huge family, and I was the youngest. So I sort of unseen in a way. I was a lot younger. And it was always really useful to go into any situation, even if it was a very volatile one, and somehow make yourself quite malleable or unseen in some way. So I think it's probably partly a I can't remember what his real name is. But he talks about how he kind of grew up in a really messed up kind of family. And he said it is often people that are spies, they take on that have grown up in that environment, because they're very good at sort of taking things in-

Matt Moseley:

Adapting.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Kind of slightly absorbing them, and then kind of reproducing them to slightly camouflage themselves. But yeah, I do find that useful as well.

Matt Moseley:

So it's something that you sort of developed as, as you said, like a survival mechanism for early life, but you now use that creatively.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. To be honest, I don't feel I use it or it's a tool. I just feel like it is me, unfortunately.

Matt Moseley:

It's just an automatic ...

Annabel Dover:

Or fortunately. Quite often I start crying really quickly if something awful happens to someone, and I can't enjoy things like slapstick.

Matt Moseley:

Overwhelming empathy.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Just something like slapstick, just I can't stand it, because I just feel so sorry for the person. But yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Because I know that you've mentioned, previously to this, so when we were talking prior to this podcast, about ... Was it John Baldessari? Who said, "When you're stuck creatively it's useful to try and think like the people that you aspire-"

Annabel Dover:

Oh, it probably was. Yeah. I don't know, but that's a really nice ... I love that idea,. And we were mentioning on the train when we were talking about my friend Nadia Hebson, senior painter at the Slade from January. So they're really lucky to have her. She kind of thinks of historical mentors. Often women, not always. And she found that really useful. And I think that's a really great way of ... I suppose you can get stuck in yourself sometimes, can't you?

Matt Moseley:

Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

And so maybe that is a really good way of-

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. So it's a way of-

Annabel Dover:

... helping yourself out of it.

Matt Moseley:

... escaping the parameters that you've kind of accidentally cul-de-sac'ed yourself in with.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Yeah. And action, I think, is really good. I mean, for all the four years of my degree, I'm such an idiot. I wish I'd just done ... I did do loads of work, but I always felt like, "Oh, I don't know." I just felt so overwhelmed by so many beautiful things in the world. I didn't know where to start.

Matt Moseley:

Yes.

Annabel Dover:

So then for the MA, that's why I then sort of superimposed that, doing one painting a day for a year.

Matt Moseley:

Right. Okay.

Annabel Dover:

To make myself do it, otherwise I'd have just gone, "Oh God. I'm so depressed. The world's so beautiful. I can't communicate it."

Matt Moseley:

So is that something that you do creatively to sustain your practice is set yourself sort of simple tasks?

Annabel Dover:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Achievable tasks like make a painting every day?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Yeah. It is. Things like that all the time. And even if I really don't feel like it, or maybe especially if I don't feel like it, I make myself draw several times a day, even if it's anything. Yeah. It doesn't really matter to what I draw.

Matt Moseley:

So do you find when you draw now, that you're drawing more automatically?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I mean-

Matt Moseley:

So you use that as your-

Annabel Dover:

I think I've drawn every day since I was about four or five or something. So I kind of ... Not that I don't realise I do it. I do know I'm doing it. But I just sort of have to do-

Matt Moseley:

Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

It's just like going for a wee, or it's just like one of those very natural things that you have to do. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Well it's a bit like Miró, isn't it, when they asked him why he paints? And he came back, he just said, "Yeah, it was an inner need". Just absolutely had to do it. It wasn't wasn't necessarily a conscious thing. It was a compulsion. It had become a habit, essential part of his life. And I mean, do you feel for students that it's really important that things like practice become like brushing your teeth? Like an unavoidable part of your day?

Annabel Dover:

Maybe. I think so. I mean, I feel like I'm slightly giving the wrong impression here, because I don't know if you ... Because your father's obviously an artist.

Matt Moseley:

He is.

Annabel Dover:

And the way he paints is like, not exactly a compulsion, but he-

Matt Moseley:

He paints in a-

Annabel Dover:

It's constant. Isn't it?

Matt Moseley:

It's a continuous process.

Annabel Dover:

It would sort of hurt him not to paint, I feel.

Matt Moseley:

Absolutely.

Annabel Dover:

Like you'd have to restrain him not to paint. So I'm not like that. And I wish I was. I think I find paint ... I think for me drawing is so immediate. And the paper can be cheap and you can throw it away, and it's sort of easy to transport. So for me, that's a lot different from, say, oil painting. I was kind of put off for years because it's such a big process, and I feel I have to work my way up to it. So now on the whole, I do more with those flash paints and things.

Matt Moseley:

So then is it important, do you think, to step in and out of your process so that you give yourself time to look?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Do you give yourself time to look at what you're doing so that you're thinking about your ideas and concepts and what you're trying to communicate? Is that what you use that time for? Or just-

Annabel Dover:

I really should. And with the drawings, I never ever look at them again. And what I do is I get a sketchbook, one of those Moleskines, and I probably go over it four or five times. So I just draw. So it's just a weird thing. So you can't even really see the drawing. And I mean, I draw them in different colors. And then I've just like ... As I said, I've been drawing since I was five, so I have just got ...

Matt Moseley:

Have you kept every sketchbook?

Annabel Dover:

Not every. But I mean, I've got a lot. My mom didn't. My mom just threw out a slew off them. So yeah. But yeah, so what I mean is I don't want to scare any students listening, thinking, "God, that woman's so annoying. She's just so in control of it." I'm not in control of it at all. And also, no, I don't really give myself time to reflect. I suppose that's why it's good to have a studio maybe and have things up on the wall and be able to leave things out for a while. And I think for me, that was really hard at art school was you'd want to leave things out, and then people would say something and you'd get, "No, please don't look. It's so awful." Lot's of embarrassment and self-consciousness.

Matt Moseley:

A sense of anxiety and you want to-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I think that's really hard.

Matt Moseley:

But is it important for students to push through that anxiety and to keep the work in the public domain, do you think? Or is it fine to-

Annabel Dover:

I don't know. I think it's fine to hide things away. But then maybe filter them later when you feel more distance from them. I don't know for me. But for me, strangely, I don't care if people hate my work. I'm incredibly uptight about ... not uptight, but anxious about people liking me. But if they hate my work it feels like it's so distant from me. I don't care at all.

Matt Moseley:

Oh okay. So do you feel sort of like a separation? And once something is finished-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah I think so.

Matt Moseley:

... and exists away from you, you feel-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I think even before it's finished, I feel-

Matt Moseley:

But is that part of your ... Because you talk about this continuous process of returning to drawing or returning to something else, that that enables you to release that last thing that you were working on because you're always working on something new?

Annabel Dover:

It's just looking, I guess. I'm really just so interested in looking and then getting what I'm looking at down. I think I guess, also when I look at old photos and things, it's often the everyday things that I find really interesting. I saw this ... it's a terrible film from the 80s. I can't remember what it's called. But what I did find interesting was it reminded me ... I was born in '75 ... So it reminded me of how much rubbish there used to be when I lived in Liverpool just on the streets, and how it's not really like that now. I mean that wasn't the point of the film atall, but I did find that really interesting, just the everyday thing. So I suppose I always people's sketch sketch books quite interesting as well, sort of famous people's sketch books. I often find that more-

Matt Moseley:

Well, it's like their sort of-

Annabel Dover:

... interest in their final work.

Matt Moseley:

... like the pamphleteers, wasn't it, who just would kind of ... yeah, and the ready-made and reusing the everyday. There's something incredibly powerful in ... By kind of referencing everyday objects that people are really familiar with, do you find that that sort of opens up participation for work? Because people have a relationship with whatever they ... everyone's got an eye and everyone's got a-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I think so. And I think especially once it's become historic in some way. It's like if you look at those Arman sculptures, and they're just sort of meant to be quite everyday things and like fag packets and things behind perspex. But they just look ... You can see all the kind of details, the beautiful ... and where they'd have been screen printed. And just stuff that's so different now that we I guess don't notice gradually happening. So for me, I guess part of it's some sort of nostalgia. And when people look at my work, they often talk about, "Oh, I had one like that." It's not necessarily having one now. It's probably-

Matt Moseley:

Yeah, yeah. It's about.

Annabel Dover:

... something that's gone and they'd forgotten that they knew about it.

Matt Moseley:

So it's the value and the power of the memory that's-

Annabel Dover:

Maybe. Yeah. I think so.

Matt Moseley:

That's really interesting. So I'd like to ... I mean, I'll come back to the bit about the bad education.

Annabel Dover:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry. I went on.

Matt Moseley:

Because I want to kind of ... It feels like we're kind of naturally segueing into the second section of-

Annabel Dover:

Oh yeah. Go for it.

Matt Moseley:

... the podcast, which is about inspire.

Speaker 11:

Inspire.

Speaker 12:

Inspire.

Speaker 13:

Inspire.

Speaker 14:

Inspire.

Matt Moseley:

You trained as an illustrator, you work as a fine art-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Sort of ... Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

What are all the activities that you think make up your kind of creative practice?

Annabel Dover:

Well, so I did fine art as a BA. Then I did one year as illustration as an MA. It was meant to be two years. Did it part-time. And then I gave that up. And then I did two years fine art. And then I did a PhD, which was fine art. So I don't feel I'm very educated in the illustration.

Matt Moseley:

No, but you were-

Annabel Dover:

But I always loved drawing. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

You work as an illustrator a lot now-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, yeah, I do. And that's been really fun. And Instagram weirdly has really helped for that as well.

Matt Moseley:

Okay. In what way?

Annabel Dover:

In that just somebody will have seen something, and then they'll pass it on, and then I'll just get contacted from it. I mean, I don't have a massive amount of followers or anything. I've just been quite lucky. Oh, and I've also ... I suppose something else that I did for the PhD was the idea of sort of Victorian women and how they communicated with one another, and men, through kind of gifts and letters and things like that. And that's something I really have always liked doing anyway. So I did that a bit with my illustrations. I sent them to people.

Matt Moseley:

Okay. What, as sort of like post or-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, just as gifts to say thank you. Yeah, for if I found them really inspiring people. I mean, genuinely. Not just, "Ah, you're great." Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

So that kind of idea of making your work ... I don't know if ephemeral is the right term. Or something which is-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. No, I think that's a good term. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

And is there something in about the work arriving unexpectedly?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, I think that's really nice as well. Yeah. Joseph Cornell used to do that a lot with people in a slightly stalker-y, pervy, kind of sexual way, which mine isn't really.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. No, yours is more sort of gift. It's like a nice-

Annabel Dover:

I hope. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

So obviously you work ... So your illustration work, you're often working for a client or a customer who's approached you for something specific. And then your fine art practice is obviously something which is personally directed by you. Do you ever find ... And then obviously you're a writer as well. So you've just published a wonderful book-

Annabel Dover:

Oh, thanks Matty.

Matt Moseley:

... called?

Annabel Dover:

Florilegia. Really hard to say.

Matt Moseley:

Thank you for saying that. I know. I've been practicing.

Annabel Dover:

Nobody can say it.

Matt Moseley:

I'm really glad that you said it.

Annabel Dover:

Nobody can say it. I don't even know if that's right.

Matt Moseley:

And again, that sits somewhere between academic and personal reflections-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I think that's a really good way of describing it. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

And so do you find it a challenge to move between these different activities? Or do they all inform one another?

Annabel Dover:

No, not really. Yeah, I think so. When I was at Saint Martins, that guy Adam Phillips, who was ... Is he a psychoanalyst? But he is also a writer. He came and he kind of said that he's always been a storyteller, really. So he just had to find a way of doing the things that he naturally really loved doing and was good at in life. So for him it was a number of things. That was writing and talking and being a psychoanalyst. That's what he is, sorry, Adam Phillips . And I mean within that, afterwards all the ladies were going, "Was he looking directly at you? He was definitely looking directly at me." So I think there was an element of ... he was sort of not exactly an actor, but that he had these skills. He was brilliant at talking, very charismatic. And yeah, so that he wanted to do all those things.

Annabel Dover:

So for me, I feel I've been lucky because ... and I quite often do this sort of ... I mean, it's not really something I plan to do, but I have done a few talks, and people have said, "Oh it's a performative lecture."

Matt Moseley:

Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Annabel Dover:

It's just meant to be a talk, really. And then I've been asked to do those. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

This might be a stretch, but do you feel that ... I mean, because obviously you are a very compelling speaker. No, but you are very emotive in the way you talk about things. And you are very good at-

Annabel Dover:

Ah, that's nice. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

... painting pictures with words.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Do you think that that links partly back to what you were talking about in terms of psychology-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

... about thinking what somebody wants to get from a lecture?

Annabel Dover:

I think so.

Matt Moseley:

So somebody doesn't want to just sit here in a chalk and talk situation.

Annabel Dover:

Definitely.

Matt Moseley:

So do you try to provide?

Annabel Dover:

I think I just ... Yeah. I think there's again, possibly from my weird background, I've just got no boundaries at all. And I try and sort of learn some social ones so as not to frighten people.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

But yeah. So even if I have to do it under the guise of saying it's fiction, then yeah, I'm happy to be open about anything. So yeah, and I think people relate to that sometimes.

Matt Moseley:

So you move through your different activities quite seamlessly then, through a week?

Annabel Dover:

I guess so. I mean, I think I'd love to do, I guess, more ... I don't know what you'd call fine art. But maybe more. I mean even the-

Matt Moseley:

More self-directed stuff?

Annabel Dover:

Maybe. More of the paintings I've done recently have been in response to a pupil. I hardly ever paint something unless someone says, "There's a show. Can you do this?" And then I'll do it. And it's often to a theme. So in some ways it's almost a sort of illustration way of doing it.

Matt Moseley:

Well, that's really useful that you've mentioned things, because I wanted to ask you about ideas and themes and concepts. So obviously you've got very powerful and kind of present ideas and concepts that kind of appear, and themes, that appear in your work regularly. And you've mentioned quite a lot about people.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

And so I was just wondering, how do you generate ideas for new work? Or new directions? Or do you revisit? Is it fine to revisit things a lot?

Annabel Dover:

Oh God, I think it's really fine to revisit things. I feel like I wish I was more like that. I always feel that kind of really serious artists, people that maybe do the one. Like kind of Cezanne's Mont St. Victoire, so it's just like one thing again and again. But I'm not really very good at that. For me, I think, I don't know. I'm just always in a slight panic. There's so much in the world that I want to kind of show or communicate or talk about before I die. And there's no way-

Matt Moseley:

Sort of paralysed by being completely inquisitive about everything?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I just find the world absolutely-

Matt Moseley:

And sometimes that's a bit overwhelming.

Annabel Dover:

... yeah, fascinating. And growing up in Liverpool and going to a sort of comprehensive school in Liverpool is not ... Those things you have to sort of do in private. Otherwise you get your head kicked in, really. Can we just get on with it, miss, please? Well no, Annabel's asking about osmosis now.

Matt Moseley:

Right. Okay. Yeah yeah.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Embarrassing.

Matt Moseley:

So we talked a bit about objects kind of, and the investment that people place in these objects-

Annabel Dover:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

And so when you're approached by an exhibition, do they give you the theme, or are you offered the opportunity to set your own theme? And if you are, how do you arrive at that theme?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Sometimes it's sort of they give me the theme, and sometimes it's something quite specific and things I'm not ... I'm really not usually very interested in painting people's faces and things. And that's quite often one. And the same with illustration. So now, more for illustration on the whole, if I kind of get a nice-ish job from a kind of company, they would know that I'm more interested in objects. Or seeing-

Matt Moseley:

So they're looking at your back catalog of work.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Yeah. So that's nice.

Matt Moseley:

They've approached you specifically because they know kind of what you do.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

So you're in that kind of position now, I guess, with your career where people kind of know what Annabel Dover does when they-

Annabel Dover:

Maybe. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

So if you kind of rewind a little bit earlier, and obviously you talked about illustration and about that being client led, and talked about working. How did you then? Or do you still have to kind of manage the expectations of clients?

Annabel Dover:

Oh yeah, still definitely. I'm really not in a position where someone goes-

Matt Moseley:

Take it. This is what I do. Take it or leave it.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, yeah. No, definitely not at all. That would be amazing. Maybe if you have an agent you can as well, because maybe they can do that for you.

Matt Moseley:

Right. So how do you manage that then? Is it a compromise?

Annabel Dover:

Well, I'm just a bit pathetic. And I just go, "Yeah. All right, that's fine." But then, I was saying to you earlier, that if you really care about it, then you want to give them the best obviously. But then if they again and again just choose the crappest one. And no, they want ... You just kind of go, "Oh, God. I'll just let them."

Matt Moseley:

So is that when you've given them a series of options to choose from?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, I guess so. And then they kind of say, "Yeah, but I'd just like it with like just a really crappily drawn daisy on it. And you just think, "Oh God. It's a bit depressing." You just go, "Yeah. All right." And I just try and get it over and done with quite quickly.

Matt Moseley:

Are you secretly going, "These are all great, but this one is really good. These are all great. But this one-"

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I'll usually say, "This is the one I like. If you want more options, let me know." And then when they say, "Yes," I go, "Oh, God."

Matt Moseley:

So there is a sense of trying to sort of not impose, but offer up your-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, I think so. Because they should hopefully be going to you for your aesthetic judgment in a way. I mean, that's what I think is a bit weird is the idea ... I do think everyone is creative naturally. And I think that we're sort of all emotional cavemen, I guess is how I partly maybe see the humans.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. So it's not a divine intervention-

Annabel Dover:

No, not at all. And I think we all are naturally, and that's one of our great survival traits. But I do think that some people have really looked at things for a long time and really thought and felt a lot about them. And sometimes I don't feel that's totally respected. Or sometimes you do something for a client and they go, "Hmm, yeah. That's not what we want," and then you see they've sort of chosen someone that's done sort of a crying eye, an eye crying blood with a reflection of the world in or something. You kind of go, "Oh God."

Matt Moseley:

Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

But not to be massively judgemental about that.

Matt Moseley:

But then so lots of people, particularly at the beginning of their career, they've got a kind of a vision of what they think they do and what they're going to do, and that's always going to be that thing. And then there's this realization that, actually, the world doesn't always come to you, you have to go to the world kind of thing.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I think that's true. But actually, in a way, I'd probably say maybe compromise less than me. Because I was always more successful ... So I remember going to my local shop in Woodbridge trying to sell some cards and they said no. And I was so depressed. And I was, "Oh, I'm just going to try." So I tried Harvey Nichols, and then I tried Smythson n Bond Street and I tried Harrods, and they all said yes. So it's just like don't be put off by the shitty little gallery that goes no. And also, as I was saying to you before, I've had much more luck when people recognize ... If there's someone you admire maybe, a designer or a company whose images you think are really amazing or innovative, or like the way that they work, But if you can just-

Matt Moseley:

But it's a two way transaction. It's not just about-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, exactly.

Matt Moseley:

... you offering yourself-

Annabel Dover:

No, exactly. I think, yes. And I think that was part of the thing about sending people things, is it is a two way interaction. If you do admire someone's work, then they might then feel the same. It might be reciprocal. So then it might feel the same when you show them. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

And I'm really pleased that you touched on about the idea of selling cards and about ...

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Because obviously in the world today there's a requirement as a creative to pay bills and to make a living. And sometimes I think people perceive some sort of conflict between impassioned creativity and value and finance. And so is it ever conflicting for you? I mean, how do you manage that?

Annabel Dover:

I mean, not really. I mean, as I say, what I do find odd is sometimes when people think, because you're an artist that you'd be really glad to do it for free, because it's such a nice thing drawing or that it's so easy. I mean, the other day I was talking to a guy at a kind of big store, and he went, "So how long would it take you to design a card for us?" And I said, "Hmm, I don't know. It depends what you want. And I'd have to go through that." He said, "I mean, I had imagined about five minutes." Just like, "Oh, thanks mate." I mean-

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

He's like some creative director for a huge department store. And so I guess it's the idea that ... Oh, but I partly feel that's in the education as well.

Matt Moseley:

They're not paying for the five minutes it takes you to do the illustration.

Annabel Dover:

No, no. No, they're not.

Matt Moseley:

They're paying for the 25 years of drawing every day.

Annabel Dover:

That, yeah. And communication and all kinds of other things. Yes. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

So is it important to kind of set an internal sense of value and self worth about your work and try and stick to that?

Annabel Dover:

Maybe.

Matt Moseley:

Do you sort of set a price point?

Annabel Dover:

I don't. No, I should. I've got no internals of ... No, no. I mean, I should. But I didn't mention this before, and I've heard that this is good. If you think it's going to offer me one of three things, or maybe try and go for at least two. So it might be money. It might be some kind of acclaim or kudos. Or you feel it will be a nice thing to have on your ... not necessarily your CV, but to have kind of it on your radar. Or I've forgotten the third one.

Matt Moseley:

Opportunity, wasn't it?

Annabel Dover:

Opportunity.

Matt Moseley:

Like the next thing.

Annabel Dover:

It might just be you really enjoy it, actually. It might have just been enjoyment. So I guess I try and do two of those at least.

Matt Moseley:

Well, I think that's a really sensible way of triaging an opportunity then, isn't it?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Is it going to financially benefit me? If it's not, is it going to give me kudos and an opportunity? And is it going to make me happy? And if it's going to pay me really well.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. That's really good. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

I think, yeah. So if you can kind of hit two of those things.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. But I often find, weirdly, like I was saying, working with Lulu Guinness was just brilliant. And for me-

Matt Moseley:

And Lulu Guinness is a?

Annabel Dover:

She's a handbag designer.

Matt Moseley:

Handbag designer.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. And so she kind of is very influenced, I suppose, by people like Schiaparelli, sort of female surrealists. So she's kind of ... I don't think trained as a ... I think she trained as a cook. I don't think trained as an artist, but-

Matt Moseley:

Right. Okay.

Annabel Dover:

She's just really incredibly full of energy.

Matt Moseley:

Right. Brilliant.

Annabel Dover:

And a real perfectionist. And just sort of everything you'd want to work with, really, as a creative person. Incredible vision. And doesn't kind of get put down by ... I think she's had times where the company has made decisions for her that she wasn't necessarily happy with. Collaborations and things. But she kind of knows her own value, I think.

Matt Moseley:

With Lulu, are you illustrating for her for promotional website things?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Or are you helping to make drawings which are then being turned into bags? What's-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, yeah. A bit of both really.

Matt Moseley:

What stage of the process is it?

Annabel Dover:

So that was just me. It was after something horrible had happened in her life. And I wrote to her. And actually I sent her a cyanotype. So I guess you'd say that was a sort of fine art thing, which is of Queen Victoria's morning hanky, which is a beautiful handkerchief that's been embroidered with hundreds of little tears after Prince Albert died. That was just via Instagram. She just liked my Instagram, I think. Started liking my Instagram. And then from then I sent her the thing. I said, "What's your address?" And then it was based on my sort of envelope. So I like sending people enveloped things, and I had painted the envelopes. And then she liked those. And then she wanted to think about using some of those decorations for ... And I think some of them are sort of confetti type ones they're going to have in the wrapping.

Matt Moseley:

Right. Okay.

Annabel Dover:

And then some are going to be bags.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. Oh, wow. So she's going to make bags from-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, some are going to be bags with the drawings on. And then some of them are these 3D, which is all her idea. She wanted to do these 3D paper flowers. So a bit like kind of Cecil Beaton set design. So I suppose something kind of really glamorous. It would be really expensive, like kind of pretend Sevres vase or something. But it's made out of card so it's really cheap and accessible.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. So you mentioned cyanotypes there, because obviously-

Annabel Dover:

Oh yeah.

Matt Moseley:

... that's something that links quite heavily to one of your influences.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Yeah. Anna Atkins. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Moseley:

So Anna Atkins is a big influence of yours?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I found her really interesting. Yeah.

Matt Moseley:

Because part of your book is about that.

Annabel Dover:

That's right. And my PhD was about that. That's right. I found her really interesting because she's kind of quite subversive, I suppose. It seemed quite subversive. Everyone had kind of ... She's had a sort of resurgence in interest recently, and there've been quite a few exhibitions of her work.

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. I've seen quite a lot of retrospectives. I mean, what is it about Atkins that kind of hooks you in?

Annabel Dover:

For me, it was just when I found out she probably or possibly faked the specimens. And then presented them to these scientific institutions as sort of science.

Matt Moseley:

For those who [inaudible 00:35:02]. What were they specimens of?

Annabel Dover:

Oh, sorry. Sort of botanical. Seaweed and ferns and things like that.

Matt Moseley:

Right. Okay. Yeah.

Annabel Dover:

But she kind of probably cut and sutured them together and made her own kind of fakes. But then was kind of obviously was perceived as this sort naive woman. So she was under the radar so she could-

Matt Moseley:

Oh wow.

Annabel Dover:

... donate them.

Matt Moseley:

Right. So because-

Annabel Dover:

She wouldn't have been allowed into these-

Matt Moseley:

... the establishment. The patriarchy wasn't taking her seriously.

Annabel Dover:

No, not at all.

Matt Moseley:

She was able to-

Annabel Dover:

She wouldn't have been allowed to be a member of these institutions. So she gave them to her, these institutions, because her father was sort of a very important scientist.

Matt Moseley:

Wow.

Annabel Dover:

And they were often put under his name as an addendum to him as well. So she was seen as a sort of servant to him.

Matt Moseley:

Do you think that there might have been a sense of it being a rebellious act?

Annabel Dover:

Definitely, yeah.

Matt Moseley:

To sort of undermine the credibility of these kind of-

Annabel Dover:

Definitely. I think, for me, yeah.

Matt Moseley:

... stuffed coat, overblown men?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. I think so. I mean, yeah. I think also subvert the order of things, maybe. Because she's written lots of novels, which people often don't know when they see an exhibition of her work. And in the novels it's a lot about women sort of fitting in or camouflaging, a bit like I was talking about earlier, camouflaging. So not being seen and camouflaging with the interior to allow the men to kind of stand out and-

Matt Moseley:

Yeah. And Atkins kind of disrupted that.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean just her novels are really funny really, the way she talks about things like that.

Matt Moseley:

Great. Yeah. Well, because obviously you use humour a lot as well in the things that you do, don't you?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, I suppose so. I guess in the writing I've tried to ... I mean, because a lot of the subject's quite grim, but I suppose it's kind of hopefully quite funny as well. And yeah. Maybe humour in ... Yeah, I suppose for me, yeah. Humour, it's kind of a way of getting through trauma as well. Life can be traumatic, and humour is very important.

Matt Moseley:

Well this is the sort of Freudian theory, isn't it? It says that it makes things palatable. Doesn't it? So we can talk about topics-

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Definitely.

Matt Moseley:

... that are too difficult to digest otherwise. So it's really great that you were talking about influences and things that inspire you, because it feels like a good moment to segue into the final part of our podcast recording today, which is our create section.

Speaker 15:

Create.

Speaker 16:

Create.

Speaker 17:

Create.

Speaker 18:

Create.

Matt Moseley:

So what we've been doing in this section is asking each of our inspirational guests to offer what we are terming as a provocation to students. Now, that can be in the form of a thought, an idea, a challenge, a specific task. But it's just something that hopefully students will be able to listen to and immediately respond to if they choose through some sort of creative practice, whether that's performance, visual art, music, sonic work, whatever that is. Do you have something?

Annabel Dover:

Yeah. Maybe a few different things. Maybe it'd be nice to do a drawing a day for a week if they could on cheap paper. Also, I was thinking maybe if you feel ... I don't know if you've ever done this, but when I paint and I look at a painting or a drawing, I can remember exactly what I was listening to, and also sort of what I was feeling when I did it. I think my prompt would be maybe try and remember that in whatever way. It doesn't have to be visually. Or you could just ... What I found quite useful, and I do that, is take a photo of what I'm looking at when I have a particular thought or feeling. And then for some weird reason it seems to encapsulate it.

Matt Moseley:

Right. Brilliant. I mean Annabel, that's been absolutely wonderful.

Annabel Dover:

Oh thanks Matt.

Matt Moseley:

I have very sadly exhausted my time with you. So thank you ever so much for your immense generosity.

Annabel Dover:

Oh, thanks so much. It's been really nice. No, no generosity. You were the generous one.

Matt Moseley:

No, I mean it's-

Annabel Dover:

Thank you.

Matt Moseley:

... just your insights and your ideas and your knowledge and expertise is incredibly useful for-

Annabel Dover:

Oh.

Matt Moseley:

... all the teachers and students that hopefully will be listening to this.

Annabel Dover:

I hope so. Don't worry is my only advice. Just do something and not worry.

Matt Moseley:

Great. Don't worry. Take action.

Annabel Dover:

Take action.

Matt Moseley:

I think that's brilliant advice. And certainly something that I feel I could use adopting as well.

Annabel Dover:

Yeah, I think most of us could.

Matt Moseley:

Thank you for listening to our final Teach, Inspire. Create Podcast of this series. It's been a fantastic journey talking to Annabel and the rest of our guests about their careers and missions in the creative arts. I hope that these conversations have sparked ideas and stimulus to carry into your own teaching, inspiring and creating. On a personal note, this has been a most enlightening journey of discovery for me. It's broadened my horizons and it's given me a hunger to hear more and more stories. I'll be dining out on my new knowledge in the pub for years to come. I hope you do too. For the last time, if you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and share it with anyone else who might find it interesting. And please do rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. This really helps us to understand what you think of the show. Thanks for listening. Until next time, take care.